Races: Halfling

[aluman]

+2 Dex +2 Wis is the straight translation of their 2e attributes, I think that hits them well even now. The only real issue is that wis/dex even though they don't key to the same ability tend to be mutually exclusive. However Wisdom is helpful for some Fighter builds (those that specifically max out OA's).

This is the only race I have an opinion about starting encounter power out of the gate:
I think, the shadow walk/dimension door could easily be translated to duplicate Eladrin's ability. That is teleport 5 squares (25ft).
They could also have specials similar to that for outside combat, but as of right now 4e's powers mostly focus on in combat.

[kgauck]

I think Shadow Walking had more to do with passing into the Shadow World than it did changing your tactical location on a battle map.

[aluman]

I think Shadow Walking had more to do with passing into the Shadow World than it did changing your tactical location on a battle map.

It did, but passing into the shadow world is no longer strictly speaking low level (at least using 4e Power scale). However, teleporting a short distance is, and would give a flavor to the halflings.

[kgauck]

Setting trumps edition.

[aluman]

They could shadow walk or dimension door, while shadow walk is moving from plane to plane (kinda) dimension door is a type of teleportation.

[Rey]

while shadow walk is moving from plane to plane (kinda) dimension door is a type of teleportation.
And so is blinking.

[bbeau22]

Lets not discount it too quickly. There is some sense there.

I don't have an opinion either way but ...

All teleportation spells in BR are considered to touch the shadow world one way or another. Why doesn't a race that has access to the shadow world be able to use in a similar fashion.

Of course the same issue happens if they contact the shadow world there is a chance something could come out from there. This certainly reduces the effectiveness of the ability.

In the end I feel it should be considered more of a plane shift .... going strictly to the shadow world and back. But neat idea.

-BB

[geeman]

At 11:04 AM 6/8/2008, BB wrote:

>In the end I feel it should be considered more of a plane shift ....
>going strictly to the shadow world and back. But neat idea.

I have no problem with an interpretation of the halfling ability to
shift into shadow as something like that. One should note, however,
that there`s a difference between that and
teleportation. Teleportation is instant and (often) flawless. The
SW is a mirror image of the world of light, not a sort of
interdimensional warp, and the halfling ability is fundamentally to
move into that world. To move about on the battlefield a halfling
would shift into the SW, move, shift back and possibly have to
reorient to the light after the change. Imagine the difference
between a character who "pops!" back and forth, and another who
vanishes, moves and then reappears.

In practice, the ability might not differ much from teleportation
game mechanically, but there should be some discreet differences to
reflect the distinction.

Halflings should probably not be able to just use such a power at any
time and place either. BR is full of special criteria for such
abilities. Those who Travel have special requirements, for example,
and the ability to enter the SW often goes along with static "gates"
between the two worlds, not simply an ability to "jump" into another
world from any location. That said, one of the locations that are
supposedly "close to the Shadow World" are battlefields where many
have fallen. Presumably a whole area of ground might be a "door" and
a halfling could shift from any point on that field.

Gary

[aluman]

The problem is, Plane Shift is now a ritual that costs money.

Even granting them the affect of a plane shift (even limited) is probably more prohibitive balance wise then worthwhile (though through a racial paragon level feat it might be ok).

By giving them a minor teleportation trick at the encounter level, in my thoughts, you keep the other worldly feel of the halfling, while maintaing the abilities presented in the PHB (One Race that teleports 1/encounter) but giving it a birthright twist.

[aluman]

I have no problem with an interpretation of the halfling ability to
shift into shadow as something like that. One should note, however,
that there`s a difference between that and
teleportation. Teleportation is instant and (often) flawless. The
SW is a mirror image of the world of light, not a sort of
interdimensional warp, and the halfling ability is fundamentally to
move into that world. To move about on the battlefield a halfling
would shift into the SW, move, shift back and possibly have to
reorient to the light after the change. Imagine the difference
between a character who "pops!" back and forth, and another who
vanishes, moves and then reappears.

In practice, the ability might not differ much from teleportation
game mechanically, but there should be some discreet differences to
reflect the distinction.

Halflings should probably not be able to just use such a power at any
time and place either. BR is full of special criteria for such
abilities. Those who Travel have special requirements, for example,
and the ability to enter the SW often goes along with static "gates"
between the two worlds, not simply an ability to "jump" into another
world from any location. That said, one of the locations that are
supposedly "close to the Shadow World" are battlefields where many
have fallen. Presumably a whole area of ground might be a "door" and
a halfling could shift from any point on that field.

Gary

There is an ability of movement in 4e called phasing, that is functionally similar to Teleportation, but discretely diffrent.

With teleportation you move more or less instantly, as long as you can see it, and you can teleport while imobile.

Phasing you can ignore diffcult terrain, obstacles, and creatures, but must end in an unoccupied space but otherwise works like normal movement.


The reason why I first suggested teleportation for the halfling is the simple fact that 4e is largely about tatical movement, one of the base races in the PHB offers teleporation (The Eladrin kinda sorta high elves) and the race in Cerillia it would go to didn't really fit them. It did however fit the general otherwordly feel the Halflings had.

[bbeau22]

I agree. Good to be open about things. A minor jump abilities would give them a little extra something ... but many might feel it would be out of the Birthright setting norm. Little too magical.

Problem is they do have the ability to travel to the shadow world as it stands. How do we relay this in their characters. Perhaps a racial path might make sense. Some Halflings retain the ability to travel to the shadow world but many have let that ability go, but any halfling could learn it with enough training.

-BB

[AndrewTall]

If the transport is inherently limited by the setting, the power is automatically restricted. The shadow world is the only plane the halflings can get to, and it is most definitely not safe - I'd suggest making it take some serious concentration, or expenditure of some sort, need a weak spot (DM's call), but otherwise letting them have it - why not?

If the halfling can't use the power in combat (except maybe to flee) then it should be fairly limited in any unbalancing effect - particularly if taking anything with them is hard. In 2e the ability wasn't about combat, I don't see why we'd make it a combat power - frankly most halfling wouldn't be in combat in the first place.

That said you really want a progression of some sort:

1. Peer into the shadow realm / see denizens for what they are
2. Transport yourself
3. Take stuff/small group with you
4. Open a gate to allow the emporer's armies to march forth

You could put level restrictions on at each point - what is unbalancing at L1 is fine at L10.

[Autarkis]

It would be as simple as having them be racial feats for the higher tiered ones.

From 2e, BR Halflings could, with a 75% chance of success and concetration, either Detect Magic, Detect Evil, or Detect Undead by 'peering' into the Shadowworld. They also had a 10 to 100% chance (sunny to cold winter night) of Dimension Dooring or Shadow Walking up to 3 times per week.

I would recommend something along the lines of giving them the ability to know the Skill 'Arcana' which allows you to Detect Magic and then another ability called 'Shadow Eyes', or something, which allows them to use Detect Evil and Detect Undead as per the Detect Magic effect.

And then give them a Daily/ Event feat that allows them to phase out into the Shadow world and walk 5 spaces before re-appearing or the round is up. Then feats can improve on it from there. However, I would also add a danger clause that if the Halfling does not peer into the Shadow World first before Shadow Stepping, they could potentially find themselves in a bad position on the other side. Racial Feats would lengthen time as well as number of individuals effected.

[kgauck]

The problem is, Plane Shift is now a ritual that costs money.

Even granting them the affect of a plane shift (even limited) is probably more prohibitive balance wise then worthwhile (though through a racial paragon level feat it might be ok).

By giving them a minor teleportation trick at the encounter level, in my thoughts, you keep the other worldly feel of the halfling, while maintaing the abilities presented in the PHB (One Race that teleports 1/encounter) but giving it a birthright twist.

Why is this a problem? Lets go back to 1st principles and look at the original halfling. He could, as Autarkis mentions, perform three detections in a single round with 75% accuracy as a 5th level wizard. He had his shadow world talent that allowed him 3/ per week to either Dimension Door or Shadow Walk a 7th level wizard's spell at the 10th level of ability. This is a pretty huge power to make a racial ability. But we took it in stride in 2nd edition. So why is it suddenly a problem?

Now, the least important aspects of these include how often they are available and how long they take to activate. I don't know that "per week" is a term of art in 4th edition. Everything seems to be speeded up to at will, per encounter, and daily. Given that everything is speeded up in 4e, why not just allow the halfling to use his talent as a daily power. It seems there is already a mechanic for the Dimension Door aspect, the Eladrin's ability, and I am fine with just using that as is.

As far as the Shadow Walk ability:

Passing into the shadow world is no longer strictly speaking low level (at least using 4e Power scale).
Since this was originally a 7th level wizard's spell, it was hardly low level in 2nd edition. The fact that others have to pay money to access this power is fine. But for halflings this is an innate power, so why not just allow it as a daily power?

The old skill was limited by when and where it was applied. That's more than flavor, it goes to the very nature of what separates the daylight world and the shadow world. The 3rd edition conversion required a feat to access this skill. I'm not sure why they thought that was necessary. They established DC's from 0 to 30.

I see no reason why this ability need not be a racial ability usable daily. What may require some refinement is how one mechanizes the chance for success.

[Lawgiver]

I'm not a fan of the nightcrawlerisc blinking. Gates to the shadow world aren't instant and it seems a bit too Forgetten Realms and less Birthright.

Give them the detection abilities and faster regeneration of the Dimension Door. I'd be tempted to add some flavor to it and give them an exhaustion or fear penalty for a brief period after using the ability to make them less likely to want to.

[aluman]

Why is this a problem? Lets go back to 1st principles and look at the original halfling. He could, as Autarkis mentions, perform three detections in a single round with 75% accuracy as a 5th level wizard. He had his shadow world talent that allowed him 3/ per week to either Dimension Door or Shadow Walk a 7th level wizard's spell at the 10th level of ability. This is a pretty huge power to make a racial ability. But we took it in stride in 2nd edition. So why is it suddenly a problem?

Well part of it is, its a high level ritual to limit accidental wandering monster deaths. I am not par say opposed to halflings being allowed to plane shift, its just races now essentially have three things they offer.

1. Racial Attribute Modifers (Majority: +2 to 2 diffrent attributes)
2. Racial Encounter Power (All but humans having something at the encounter level, Dwarves's Second Wind is a minor action instead of standard but Second wind is only useable 1/encounter. Half Elves get an at will of an off class as a encounter power, all others have flavorful talents).
3. Skill Modifers
Most also have some other handy benifit.

Most have 3 feats split between the Heroic and Paragon Tiers, but they don't add powers they modify them.

Now the encounter powers presented in the PHB (IE the ones they feel should be generally in player hands):
1 AoE (Dragon Breath deals minor damage, is mostly for minion control)
2 Rerolls (One on the PC side, one on the DM Side)
1 Movement based (Teleporation is easily the best form of movement)
1 Healing Based (Second Wind lets you spend a healing surge)

Halflings in the Base book get to make the DM reroll a roll, which could still fit in vague ways with BR

Elves get to reroll, and the Eladrin (high elves) get to teleport. Of these, the Reroll fits the Sidhe much better than the teleportation, as though they are connected to the land and are magical, its not that style of magic.

However Dimenson Door was always a kinda minor teleport action. Thus the gensis for my idea. ITs felt that teleportation is too strong for simulation of the shadow world powers of halflings, so I suggest maybe: Allowing them to move in phase 1/encounter, Phasing in 4e works similarly to teleport only is much more minor. You can't phase if imbolized, but you get the same affect of ignoring hostile terrain and obstacles. (including creatures).



Now, the least important aspects of these include how often they are available and how long they take to activate. I don't know that "per week" is a term of art in 4th edition. Everything seems to be speeded up to at will, per encounter, and daily. Given that everything is speeded up in 4e, why not just allow the halfling to use his talent as a daily power. It seems there is already a mechanic for the Dimension Door aspect, the Eladrin's ability, and I am fine with just using that as is.

As far as the Shadow Walk ability:

Since this was originally a 7th level wizard's spell, it was hardly low level in 2nd edition. The fact that others have to pay money to access this power is fine. But for halflings this is an innate power, so why not just allow it as a daily power?

I'm not strictly speaking opposed to allowing them to use the ritual Nth times a week/month, just to me Shadow Walk (Though as I think about it, Phasing is a better interptation of Shadow Walk then planar movement par say anyway) equates planar movement, if in a minor way (you move to the demiplane of shadow and walk much faster than normal). The ritual thing is more the cost involved is meant to prohbit parties from abusing certain powers, placing a limit of X freebies a week does the same thing.


The old skill was limited by when and where it was applied. That's more than flavor, it goes to the very nature of what separates the daylight world and the shadow world. The 3rd edition conversion required a feat to access this skill. I'm not sure why they thought that was necessary. They established DC's from 0 to 30.

I see no reason why this ability need not be a racial ability usable daily. What may require some refinement is how one mechanizes the chance for success.

See to me, to keep BRCS on par with the PHB the races need some of the similar abilities, and having done a few combats in 4e, tatical movement is more critical than just about anything else, so having an option for superior tatical movement in the game is important.

Halflings in BR best fit this criteria.

[kgauck]

So, if I understand you correctly, your argument now, is that the number of powers for a race is sufficiently reduced that just the teleport ability stands in balance to the others, and that the rest of the racial abilities are handled in other ways, then that's fine. The rest of it, like the high level ritual bit, are not consequential given what we have in 2e.


See to me, to keep BRCS on par with the PHB the races need some of the similar abilities ... Halflings in BR best fit this criteria.

This is the money quote. You see, we're not gathered here because we think 4e is the greatest thing and would like to see BR crammed into its framework. Instead we are committed to Birthright and would rather see the setting retain the same feel while perhaps using 4e mechanics, if such a thing makes sense. But most of us are not inclined to see BR compromised because 4e does it this way.

As a daily power (double what 2e allowed) I can accept a little shadow walking in combat, though I would prefer some more of the classic feel. But as an encounter ability, I have to totally side with Lawgiver on this and say its way too flashy for BR.

Of course we still have the detection ability of halflings to consider.

[Sorontar]

So true KG. This is why the BRCS for D&D3 does not have Monks and Gnomes worked into it. We are not trying to fit Birthright into D&D3. We are trying to fit D&D3 into Birthright. I suspect that for D&D4, this would the simplest approach too.

That said, a little bit of the BRCS has been designed the other way, e.g. allowing in sorcerers and introducing the Scion class with levels so that PCs have "blooded" included in their character level. But I suspect that people will want to remodel the D&D4 races (like we are discussing here) to fit what Birthright expects and ignore any additional races.

Sorontar.
whose Rjurik druid has "Word of Recall" (6th level cleric spell in AD&D) prepared as his teleportation escape clause from life-ending combat.... provided he doesn't get knocked out.

[aluman]

So, if I understand you correctly, your argument now, is that the number of powers for a race is sufficiently reduced that just the teleport ability stands in balance to the others, and that the rest of the racial abilities are handled in other ways, then that's fine. The rest of it, like the high level ritual bit, are not consequential given what we have in 2e.

Well not exactly, each race has a specific encounter level ability that contributes to the power pool, the only exception is humans who have an extra at will power. Thus: If we strive for balance we must keep this pattern.



This is the money quote. You see, we're not gathered here because we think 4e is the greatest thing and would like to see BR crammed into its framework. Instead we are committed to Birthright and would rather see the setting retain the same feel while perhaps using 4e mechanics, if such a thing makes sense. But most of us are not inclined to see BR compromised because 4e does it this way.

Oddly, I would rather see BR fit smoothly with 4e, which does require several alterations, some for balance purposes, others to actually shore up otherwise lagging abilities. In 2e, 1/week was ok, in 3e 1/week was iffy. in 4e 1/week doesn't exsist.


As a daily power (double what 2e allowed) I can accept a little shadow walking in combat, though I would prefer some more of the classic feel. But as an encounter ability, I have to totally side with Lawgiver on this and say its way too flashy for BR.

If thats too flashy, then MM as a whole has to be revised whole scale to fit for BR. 4E is flashier than 2e or 3e, I agree. I don't see specifically why Birthright with its Blood Abilities can't boost its races to be flashy with it. Again, tactical movement in combat is Expected in 4e. 4e has a race that exploits tactical movement. limiting the ability to 1/day effectively removes it as a tactical choice, except in tactical retreat.


Of course we still have the detection ability of halflings to consider.
Thats because detection per say doesn't exist in 4e.
Detect Magic (of any kind) no longer exists in ritualized or non-ritualized form.
I am not sure why on this one, and have no suspicions.

Detect Evil is gone. This was because Detect Evil, Zone of Truth and Detect Thoughts ruined mystery style adventures (and intrigue), or so the rumors go.

Detect Undead doesn't exist anymore, no idea why

[kgauck]

4E is flashier than 2e or 3e, I agree. I don't see specifically why Birthright with its Blood Abilities can't boost its races to be flashy with it.

Because Birthright is not a flashy setting. This is why so many people insist on low magic (or rare magic) and low level. Its a political setting. Giving everyone cool interaction abilities instead of encounter abilities makes a lot more sense for BR. I think its worth spending some time seriously considering that option.


Again, tactical movement in combat is Expected in 4e. 4e has a race that exploits tactical movement. limiting the ability to 1/day effectively removes it as a tactical choice, except in tactical retreat.

I normally have combat once a gaming session. And then only because too much combat free gaming leaves players hungry for a little blood. Frankly 1/encounter and 1/month amount to the same thing in a combat ability. (Except in wartime.)

[aluman]

Because Birthright is not a flashy setting. This is why so many people insist on low magic (or rare magic) and low level. Its a political setting. Giving everyone cool interaction abilities instead of encounter abilities makes a lot more sense for BR. I think its worth spending some time seriously considering that option.

We certainly can, but it means as a whole the MM and how its monsters work has to be retooled
For example, in the level 1 monsters (excluding kobolds and others that probably won't come over to BR)
Goblins shift every time they are missed in combat
Spiretop Drake has flyby attack (And flies 8 (hover))
Stirges fly (hover)

Hoever from the MM is essentially they never are not flying.



I normally have combat once a gaming session. And then only because too much combat free gaming leaves players hungry for a little blood. Frankly 1/encounter and 1/month amount to the same thing in a combat ability. (Except in wartime.)
I typically run 2-3 combats a day (depends on how much we spend on noncombat stuff what they are per game session). And if 1/encounter and 1/month amount to the same thing in your mind, whats the problem with letting the halfling being able to move tatically 1/encounter?

Is it an upgrade from 2e? Yes.
Does it violate the setting feel: To a degree, no worse than warlocks as a whole.

Does it violate the feel of halflings: No. Halfling war units have always had the ability to move around the terrain 1/battle.

[irdeggman]

Does it violate the setting feel: To a degree, no worse than warlocks as a whole.


Nothing says that all PHB core classes (or races) are a true fit for a setting.

Having gone with setting trumps core (as a lot are looking at here) - it is entirel possible to throw out races/clases that do not fit the setting and replace them with ones that do.

Cerilian races are supposed to be different after all.

And while I like a lot of the PHB races and classes, that doesn't mean I think they have a place in a BR setting. Tieflings and dragonborn just don't settle well with BR (IMO).


Neither do warlocks.

There should be more humans than other races in BR after all - well at least they should be more dominant at the domain level anyway.

I do think the warlord is a natural fit for the setting though.

[aluman]

I agree with most of your points.
Once again, this is why I am thinking the Halflings should have some kind of tactical movement, though.

In the core Race encounter level powers:

1. Dragonborn has a minion control/area of affect breath weapon
2. Elves have a reroll on the PC side
3. Eladrin have superior tatical moevment
4. Halflings can make the DM reroll
5. Half Elves can pick up an at will of class as an ecounter power
6. Tieflings can get an attack boost when someone hits him.
7. Dwarves can use second wind as a minor action

We have three races (Elf, Dwarf, Half Elf) to grant those six powers to. Of them thre rerolls, the movement, minion control are the best abilities. However, I see no reason that the cerillian dwarves are significantly diffrent in the tough guy aspect of dwarves, so they should keep the second wind as a minor action.

Our elves best resemble the normal elves in the core book, keep the rerolling of an attack.

Half Elves should keep their ability as well.

Halflings did get a reroll in the base book, and it could theoritically fit the current halflings in cerillia as well. However to me the bigger power left unused is the movement power. Halflings are otherwordly, and Did have power to move around (3/week instead of 1/encounter, but depending on game speed it could come out to the same amount).

[bbeau22]

If we want to stick to the new 4th edition rules as close as possible than this it is a good move to keep halfings with powers in the rulebook. It does give them a bit of a fantasic side to them ... but as you said they are from another world in many ways.

I would rather make it a race feat that they can take at higher levels. I wouldn't think that all halflings could do it, but a few that persue that type of power, which actually might be shunned by other halflings, could gain the power. Maybe every village has a shadow walker so as a race they don't forget their past incase the shadow world is ever purged of evil. How about it being a racial paragon path ... Shadow walker or something.

We are already going to have enough fun trying balance all of the different humans ... lets not stress about halflings when their are pretty good rules already in place for them.

-BB

[Wilenburg]

So far I like that suggestion because it gives the halfling and people playing them an option of advance. But as a feat it should have 2 prerquisites 1) Must be a halfling and 2) must have knowledge of the shadow world (History and Lore).

[Lawgiver]

I would rather make it a race feat that they can take at higher levels. I wouldn't think that all halflings could do it, but a few that persue that type of power, which actually might be shunned by other halflings, could gain the power. Maybe every village has a shadow walker so as a race they don't forget their past incase the shadow world is ever purged of evil. How about it being a racial paragon path ... Shadow walker or something.

Now that I could possibly agree with. Though not necessarily every village, but one per large region making it rare would be tolerable.

[fbaker4]

I know it might seem overly simplistic, but I don't see why the 'second chance' is intrinsically halfling; I might just swap it out for the Eldarin 'Fey Step' and add in, as a daily power, the 'Sense the Presence of Magic' aspect of the Arcana Skill, tailored to the BR halfling by adding in the Evil & Undead aspect that are in the 2nd ed rulebook along with the caveat that they have that as an trained skill. While I would posit that no one has the desire or capability to 'train' that skill, the 2nd ed text states 75% chance; I think the +5 for trained suffices for that.

SO I leave it as the 4e book; +2 dx/ch, skill bonus of Acrobatics & Thievery, +5 v fear, +2 v. Opportunity attacks, and both Fey Step and Whiff of Magic; the daily standard action to detect magic/evil/undead as the skill; half level + IN bonus +5; a typical village 'wise woman' but well have a +8-12 then, and that's not so bad.

thoughts?

[bbeau22]

I know it might seem overly simplistic, but I don't see why the 'second chance' is intrinsically halfling; I might just swap it out for the Eldarin 'Fey Step' and add in, as a daily power, the 'Sense the Presence of Magic' aspect of the Arcana Skill, tailored to the BR halfling by adding in the Evil & Undead aspect that are in the 2nd ed rulebook along with the caveat that they have that as an trained skill. While I would posit that no one has the desire or capability to 'train' that skill, the 2nd ed text states 75% chance; I think the +5 for trained suffices for that.

SO I leave it as the 4e book; +2 dx/ch, skill bonus of Acrobatics & Thievery, +5 v fear, +2 v. Opportunity attacks, and both Fey Step and Whiff of Magic; the daily standard action to detect magic/evil/undead as the skill; half level + IN bonus +5; a typical village 'wise woman' but well have a +8-12 then, and that's not so bad.

thoughts?

Sounds mostly pretty good but I would have to look a little more closely. The fey steps makes alot of sense to add in to them. I always feel the simplest answers is usually the best if it still keeps with the feel of what we are looking for.

-BB

[fbaker4]

Here's how I'm going to handle halflings in my (new & accepting applications) pbem game:

Halflings, Cerilia
As the text, but with two main changes. Fey Step in place of Second Chance and 'See the Shadow'; it's a daily power that acts like the 'Sense the Presence of Magic' from the Arcana skill; it also is used for detecting evil or undead.

So limited changes, trying to bridge the game between the original 2nd ed rules and the 4e.

[Sir Tiamat]

Here's how I'm going to handle halflings in my (new & accepting applications) pbem game:

Halflings, Cerilia
As the text, but with two main changes. Fey Step in place of Second Chance and 'See the Shadow'; it's a daily power that acts like the 'Sense the Presence of Magic' from the Arcana skill; it also is used for detecting evil or undead.

So limited changes, trying to bridge the game between the original 2nd ed rules and the 4e.

Detect undead perhaps, but I would not allow Halflings to detect evil through the shadow world. I think it is great for the political intrigue of the setting that detect evil was ousted and I see no need to get it back in.

[fbaker4]

But the 2nd ed rules clearly state:

[pg 8, 2nd col, 1st para, 2nd sent] "This allows them to detect evil..."

And so I think that it belongs in the setting.

Would you agree or disagree, and why?

I should add that I think it too strong an ability, but it's in the 2nd ed., and I'm loathe to counter it from personal perspective only.

[kgauck]

In classic D&D good and evil were concrete forces no less than the elements. If one means evil as in a force from hell, Azrai, the negative energy of the Shadow, the I don't think anyone objects to detecting evil.

If you mean people who think bad thoughts, detect evil is a story wrench of monkey proportions.

I'd be happy to see the name changed to reflect the more limited interpretation.

[fbaker4]

Yes, i see your distinction; I have it, though could re-read it; would you say that Evil was an _elemental_ force in 4e? Or some other kind of discrete aspect? Or is it more aetherial? Because I agree, that if the Evil is concrete, then it may be detected, but if it's simply some fickle emotion, then it shouldn't be.

[Sir Tiamat]

But the 2nd ed rules clearly state:

[pg 8, 2nd col, 1st para, 2nd sent] "This allows them to detect evil..."

And so I think that it belongs in the setting.

Would you agree or disagree, and why?

I should add that I think it too strong an ability, but it's in the 2nd ed., and I'm loathe to counter it from personal perspective only.

Yes but in 2nd (and 3rd for that matter) evil was an important part of DnD cosmology. There existed all kinds of spells and powers pertaining to good, evil, law and chaos. In 2nd and 3rd I would not do away with detect evil, because of this importance. Still, it was problematic that NPC’s would first undergo an alignment check in order to determine whether they would be disregarded as untrustworthy on beforehand. Now not even the Paladin is left with the ability to detect evil, why would the Halfling retain it simply because it had the ability back in second?

Don’t get me wrong, I do not really mind detect evil in 2nd and 3rd, but if we are going to create a 4th edition birthright, I guess detect evil has got to go. And a similar case might be made for detect undead. I like the fact that players do not know who to trust or not on beforehand, especially in a low/rare-magic setting as birthright.

[bbeau22]

I do think many of agree that detect evil was problematic. As a DM I would often have to make sure some characters had a way to protect themselves from the divinations. That isn't a problem the first or second time ... but when the characters see it over and over it becomes lame.

I think in Birthright with so many different characters with different motivations, I am good with losing the detect evil ability. The blood ability that allows for characters to sense good intentions or bad intenstions towards them can remain, because it doesn't give the alignment up.

-BB

[AndrewTall]

You could do the same with the halflings - they detect people intending them serious harm - the ogre wandering by won't be noticed (unless he is hungry), the guy having bad day who just feels like beating someone up (but is usually not a bad guy) would. This removes the idea of evil as a concrete force and makes it more personalised to the recipient. Like 'detect lie' detect evil was vastly over-used, particularly by paladins of course!

Personally I see the 'detect evil' as a hangover from the shadow world, which is often seen as evil (although not always). As such I'd rather have it linked to detecting undead simply because many of them are linked to the shadow world - but I'd make clear to players that they shouldn't expect to pick up every undead, and that it could be drowned out by other shadow world stuff - it should see use as a Mcguffin to help find portals, etc.

Overall detect undead is only an issue if used to pick up concealed undead - a warning of a nearby ghost, zombie army is nice - but generally these things can be found anyway. Breaking the cover of the lich shrouded in illusion is more game breaking.

Perhaps best of all I'd make it a pure Mcguffin power to detect otherworldly stuff - it would pick up some elves, fey, demons, etc, etc - probably act as a warning signal of 'generic bad stuff', 'bad magic' and 'uh-oh, funky magic chick warning'. I'm not sure how that balances in 4e but munchkins rarely play halflings anyway.

[kgauck]

Detect Evil is a tool just like anything else. That means it should have a defense.

Since I tend to analogize everything to war, I will do that here as well. There are two forms of war, maneuver and attrition.

Maneuver attempts to attack and enemy when his defenses are down, unprepared, or mis-prepared. So in this case, a divination should be successful when someone doesn't expect it or expects something else. Perhaps I head fake that I will Detect Lies and instead Detect Evil. In 4e this is because I bluffed and you failed your insight check. It might be because I snuck into a place where you didn't know you were being observed, or mistook the observer for something benign , a waitress, for example. One might analogize to eavesdropping. If I can catch you unaware so that I can listen to your secret conversation, I can Detect Evil on you with your defenses down. You may still have passive defenses, but active defenses are down.

Attrition is where two sides spend or bid against one another both sides hoping to deplete the resources of the other side until at some point one side runs out and basically collapses. If I suspect I have more magical resources, I might spend them to first reduce your active defenses and then penetrate your passive defenses. But this will only work if I believe that I have more resources, otherwise I'll spend them all and you'll still have defenses.

Now in 4e, this kind of thing can be an at-will power, a per encounter power, daily, and a ritual. Like all the other things that are no longer tracked to eliminate bookkeeping, this system is easy to use, but it reduces attrition to "who gets a luck roll first", though maneuver is still possible.

Something like this could be an encounter, presumably a Wis vs Will attack. Success would reveal information.

However, Discern Lies is a ritual, and so unless there is a good setting reason to do otherwise, the halfling ability would be a ritual as well. But that might be the case, since the halfling ability is more of an instinct or aspect of perception than it is an actual divination, like the spell was. It was an innate ability, not a consultation with the heavens. Even so, if a halfling has to meditate, concentrate, or get himself attuned, it can still be a rital.

As others have mentioned, the halfling is really just sensitive to shadow world things. Not precisely evil, but the taint of the Shadow World. This is not the only example of this particular power. Though they were spells, we had Determine Cerilian Origin and Detect Elven Influence. All three of these seem to be of a piece, and should be treated the same way.

A kind of ritual or ability to detect Shadow World taint, Sidhelien influence, or Cerilian origin does seem to be of a similar power, even if the power is expressed differently.

[irdeggman]

As far as halflings and detect evil - I see it more as a danger sense.

Something they developed over the years of corruption of their home.

So using it as a means of getting bonuses to initiative or something like that makes a lot more sense to me and seems to fit the "survival" instincts they seem to have. Stepping through shadow world portals is likewise a survival mechanism in my view.

[Pabloj]

Just trying to contribute my 2 cents.

D&D 4th PHB 2 is coming this month and I believe it includes lots of "racial" material, like parangon paths and more feats, and also "backgrounds" like the ones used on Scales of War Adv Path and Forgotten Realms. So there is a lot of material to work with coming soon.

On the racial power, I would simply swap the eladrin and halfing powers, and as it was said, give them the "sense magic" ability with a bonus or such, and include all oddities as undead under the "magic umbrella".

As for the long distance travels, we can simply create a feat that lets the halfling do teleportation rituals without money expenditure, but lots of other restrictions: place, things teleported, weather, etc.

As for detect Evil and such, I say good riddance to those. I think it is a AD&D feature much more than a Birthright feature.

[dundjinnmasta]

I just gave the halflings the "Shadow Jaunt" ability of the Shadai-kai because the flavor seemed to fit the halflings dimension door ability of 2e. I agree that setting should trump edition but I believe it is the setting flavor that should trump it and not the hard-rules. Halflings were connected to the Shadow World and could dimension door so when looking for 4e counterparts for flavor and ability I thought the Shadow Jaunt power was fitting.

You want to update Birthright to the modern gaming age or else you may as well just continue playing 2e Birthright. 3.x Birthright changed some of the flavor and feel considerably if you asked me and thus I think 2e was superior for purity but 4e has alot to offer as well without stomping on the setting.

[Pabloj]

I just gave the halflings the "Shadow Jaunt" ability of the Shadai-kai because the flavor seemed to fit the halflings dimension door ability of 2e. I agree that setting should trump edition but I believe it is the setting flavor that should trump it and not the hard-rules. Halflings were connected to the Shadow World and could dimension door so when looking for 4e counterparts for flavor and ability I thought the Shadow Jaunt power was fitting.

Certainly the most elegant and simple solution I´ve seen so far. :)

[tpdarkdraco]

I hadn't been following this thread but I have just read it after I created a 4e version of my own. It seems that some of the things discussed I have included so here is what I have come up with.


Halflings, Cerilian
Racial Traits

Average Height: 3’3” – 4’
Average Weight: 70 – 85 lbs

Ability Scores: +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Size: Small
Speed: 5
Vision: Normal

Languages: Regional language, one other of your choice.
Skill Bonus: +2 Stealth, +2 Athletics
Bonus Skill: You gain training in Arcana
Fey Origin: Cerilian halflings came from the Shadow World, as such you are considered a fey creature for the purpose of effects that relate to creature origin.
Steady Hands: You gain a +1 attack bonus on all ranged attacks.
Shadow Step: you can use shadow step as an encounter power.

Shadow Step Halfling Racial Power
You step through the Shadow World and reappear a short distance away with the shadows still clinging to you.
Encounter *Teleportation
Move Action Personal
Effect: You can teleport up to 3 squares, you gain concealment until the start of your next turn.

[bbeau22]

Looks pretty good. Nice work.

[dundjinnmasta]

I am going to assume that you choose Athletics because 3.xE halflings get +2 to Climb & Jump? You have to realize that there was a divorce between 2E Halflings (Hobbit) and 3.xE Halflings (Kender-lite). This is one of the reasons I would take away Acrobatics as bonus skill because Cerilian Halflings retain their Hobbit-roots.

Though I know that Cerilian Halflings are suppose to have alot of knowledge about the Shadow World and such I don't agree with giving them Arcana (also it is an INT-based skill creating a MAD unless they go with an INT-based class which is redundant with their dex and wis bonuses).

We do not really have a template for the something like Steady Hands so we don't really know if it is balanced or not (though it is similar to the ones that give you attack bonuses to Bloodied creatures) I would not retain that part of the Halflings when updating to 4E.

2E Halflings & Cerilian Halflings have both a Poison and Magical resistance so I think we should focus on them.


Cast-Iron Stomach: +5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison.

Poison is out of the way now. There is no real template for Arcane resistance but we do have Saving Throw bonuses or we have defense bonuses. I am going to say we should go with Saving Throw as alot of magical effects will have (Save Ends) and this makes them resistant to them. The only two that I can find that are similar are with the Genasi which is "a +1 racial bonus to saving throws" or "a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against ongoing damage". The first one fits better then the second one so now we need an ability name for it that fits the halflings... I am going to go with Halfling Tolerance for now because Fortitude or Endurance don't fit... so if anyone wants to offer a better name let me know.

So now I present my Cerilian Halflings v2 though I will state I am not exactly happy with defaulting to "Thievery" as their other +2 skill but I can't think of better skill that fits them and their ability scores.

[tpdarkdraco]

I am going to assume that you choose Athletics because 3.xE halflings get +2 to Climb & Jump? You have to realize that there was a divorce between 2E Halflings (Hobbit) and 3.xE Halflings (Kender-lite). This is one of the reasons I would take away Acrobatics as bonus skill because Cerilian Halflings retain their Hobbit-roots.

That is part of the reason I chose Athletics but also because I don't see halflings as Thiefly trained. They are wanderers and I think that athletics fits for that.



Though I know that Cerilian Halflings are suppose to have alot of knowledge about the Shadow World and such I don't agree with giving them Arcana (also it is an INT-based skill creating a MAD unless they go with an INT-based class which is redundant with their dex and wis bonuses).

Just because a race has ability modifiers that are not the same as a trained skill doesn't mean it should not be. Even if a PC choice a 10 for their Int a halfling would still have some skill to detect things like magic. As they go up in level they will get better. Someone who chooses a higher Int will be better but that come down to player choice. I definately don't agree that it is redundant.

I also like this because of their 2e ability to detect magic, evil & undead.



We do not really have a template for the something like Steady Hands so we don't really know if it is balanced or not (though it is similar to the ones that give you attack bonuses to Bloodied creatures) I would not retain that part of the Halflings when updating to 4E.

This was based off the 2e BR which gave halflings +1 bonus with slings and thrown missiles. Maybe it should be just scaled back to this and not all range weapons.



2E Halflings & Cerilian Halflings have both a Poison and Magical resistance so I think we should focus on them.

Poison is out of the way now. There is no real template for Arcane resistance but we do have Saving Throw bonuses or we have defense bonuses. I am going to say we should go with Saving Throw as alot of magical effects will have (Save Ends) and this makes them resistant to them. The only two that I can find that are similar are with the Genasi which is "a +1 racial bonus to saving throws" or "a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against ongoing damage". The first one fits better then the second one so now we need an ability name for it that fits the halflings... I am going to go with Halfling Tolerance for now because Fortitude or Endurance don't fit... so if anyone wants to offer a better name let me know.

I like the name and I think I am swinging toward just the Tolerance bonus but maybe change it to +5 vs Poison & +5 vs Arcane ongoing effects.

So now I present my Cerilian Halflings v2 though I will state I am not exactly happy with defaulting to "Thievery" as their other +2 skill but I can't think of better skill that fits them and their ability scores.[/QUOTE]

The one thing I don't like about your Shadow Step is the insubstantial part, too powerful. That is why I chose concealment as the shadows lightly obscure the halfling.

[dundjinnmasta]

My Shadow Step is an exact replica of the Shadar-kai's Shadow Jaunt. I doubt that it is to powerful because it is balanced to the other MM racial powers for 4E. By changing it you *may* be unbalancing the power though to what effect I do not know.

I am just more comfortable using pre-existing powers in place of developing new ones or altering them at this time.

[tpdarkdraco]

My Shadow Step is an exact replica of the Shadar-kai's Shadow Jaunt. I doubt that it is to powerful because it is balanced to the other MM racial powers for 4E. By changing it you *may* be unbalancing the power though to what effect I do not know.

I am just more comfortable using pre-existing powers in place of developing new ones or altering them at this time.

Yes but the Shadar-kai's live in the Shodowfell and still do. Cerilian halflings have left the Shadow World for some time and their abilities are left over from when they were native. They aren't native anymore. That is why I have not copied the Shadar-kai. The other reason is that I have been thinking about using the Shadar-kai in the Shadow World and want them to be different from Cerilian halflings.

[bbeau22]

Yes but the Shadar-kai's live in the Shodowfell and still do. Cerilian halflings have left the Shadow World for some time and their abilities are left over from when they were native. They aren't native anymore. That is why I have not copied the Shadar-kai. The other reason is that I have been thinking about using the Shadar-kai in the Shadow World and want them to be different from Cerilian halflings.

I don't have a problem with the Shadowstep myself as a power. If you are unhappy with it just change the way it is described but have it have the same effect. Some like to have halflings with an even closer relationship to the shadow world, while others want to keep them more distant.

"Halflings are easy to lose track of in combat and seem to disappear and reappear at will in a fight ... blah blah blah"

"Halflings connection to the Shadow World allows them to quickly enter the Shadow world, if only for a split second, then back out again moving themselves in combat. Halflings are careful to use this ability .... blah blah blah."

Same power either way. Lets not split hairs too much on this.

-BB

PS: If you wanted a description in an "official" ruling them simply leave it amibiguous. "Halflings seems to jump around in battle with uncanny quickness, either it comes from their connection to the shadow world or simply they are hard to keep track of when fighting."

[dundjinnmasta]

Yes but the Shadar-kai's live in the Shodowfell and still do. Cerilian halflings have left the Shadow World for some time and their abilities are left over from when they were native. They aren't native anymore. That is why I have not copied the Shadar-kai. The other reason is that I have been thinking about using the Shadar-kai in the Shadow World and want them to be different from Cerilian halflings.

Ah, the root of the problem is that you want to use the Shadar-Kai as a Shadow World race to fill in the "blanks" in the Shadow World so you can't give the Halflings the equal power that is flavored best for them. You could technically follow the Eladrin ability but it doesn't have the exact same flavor as the Shadar-Kai power, but changing insubstantial to concealment is not really a big enough change to make the Halflings all the much different from the Shadar-Kai to be worthwhile.

[tpdarkdraco]

I don't have a problem with the Shadowstep myself as a power. If you are unhappy with it just change the way it is described but have it have the same effect. Some like to have halflings with an even closer relationship to the shadow world, while others want to keep them more distant.

Same power either way. Lets not split hairs too much on this.


I am not trying to split hairs but the differences are this:

Insubstantial gives - 1/2 damage from attacks & ongoing damage
Concealment gives - -2 to attacks against you
Shadar-Kai only get: +1 to Fort & 2 Skill bonuses because of the power of this ability.
Currently we have halflings with a few extra things.


That is the reason for the concealment instead of the insubstantial in my mind. Insubstantial is much more powerful than concealment.

[dundjinnmasta]

I would say alot of the monsters are underpowered, however I don't think that changing it to concealment is really doing that much better at balancing it out. These halflings don't get an actually full defense bonus but two situational bonuses, +1 for Saving Throws, +5 for Poison.

I still don't completely agree with the Arcana as Arcana is more then Detect Magic, it is a knowledge of the magical workings which I don't see Halflings having. I could see a +2 bonus to Arcana which means that non-arcana trained Halflings have a chance to still use the skill and it gets more powerful as they level (the 1/2 level modifier).

[dundjinnmasta]

I wanted to add that when races are updated to full player rules from the MM they don't always retain the original MM power level. Example being the Gnome which had three abilities added to it (Fey Origin, Master Trickster, Trickster's Cunning).