Hogunmark

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Hogunmark (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Hogunmark). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

Hogunmark has 13 provinces, but only 6 jarldoms. Can someone please tell me who "controls" what in Hogunmark and how the Rjurik tribes fit with all of this. I am trying to work out some local politics for Valkheim, but I have realised that I don't know whether there is anymore a Jarl of Valkheim, nor whether he/she is a local or not.

Sorontar.

ps. just noticed the law holdings in Hogunmark are listed in the wiki as having different regents. Are these the jarls? Or are these just the chiefs of the tribes that "reside" there?

[AndrewTall]

According to PS Hogunmark there are only 6 jarls who rule provinces, although the nomadic clans also have jarls. The other provinces are directly ruled by the queen.

[kgauck]

Even where the queen rules directly there need to be a person in the place of the count to run things on a day to day basis, a steward, chancellor, sheriffs, bailiff, reeve, or some official.

We also need to attach last names to people, and in the case of the jarls, apparently first names as well.

The plots assume the death of the monarch, who is described as alive and well in other places in the text. This is a potential source of great confusion, since we who know the PS's are familiar with the unnecessary devise of assuming the regent is dead and your PC is their successor, but any reasonable person visiting without that benefit will wonder what is going on.

[stv2brown1988]

Even where the queen rules directly there need to be a person in the place of the count to run things on a day to day basis, a steward, chancellor, sheriffs, bailiff, reeve, or some official.


Some of my confusion with the Rjurik realms lie in the interaction between the King/Queen and the Jarls. I assume that if your PC is in the King/Queen position you would want to create Vassels of the remaining Jarls. Asking them to contribute something to the welfare of the kingdom.

How much would that be anyway? I seem to remember something in the rules saying no more than 1 RP. What if that one point puts your PC over the maximum RP allowed per turn? Do you still give it to the PC?

Has anyone else turned Jarls into Vassels and what benefit did the PC get from this?

[kgauck]

The jarls already are your vassals. Otherwise they'd have sovereign domains. Forcing them to pay tribute would be the kind of humiliation one might visit on a conquered people, not your own sworn oathmen.

[AndrewTall]

Some of my confusion with the Rjurik realms lie in the interaction between the King/Queen and the Jarls. I assume that if your PC is in the King/Queen position you would want to create Vassels of the remaining Jarls. Asking them to contribute something to the welfare of the kingdom.

How much would that be anyway? I seem to remember something in the rules saying no more than 1 RP. What if that one point puts your PC over the maximum RP allowed per turn? Do you still give it to the PC?

Has anyone else turned Jarls into Vassels and what benefit did the PC get from this?

From recollection RP from vassalage occurs after the bloodline cap comes in - so it can be used by a king with a low bloodline score to increase RP income via vassals - the capped vassal doesn't get to tithe for free.

'Honest' way to get jarls to contribute GB:

*Visit them to proclaim your affection for them - they of course host the court during your stay meaning that they pay for the food and entertainment.

*Give them the honour of sponsoring a company of men - preferably under church or crown command

*'Agree' that the crown should meet half the cost of an action in their lands as it will benefit both clan and crown.

*Ask them to lend men to some rebuilding / restoration works as charity to their fellows - they of course would not be so churlish as to charge the crown.

*speak of some problem or other that needs attention and bemoan the more serious threat that you need to deal with instead - hint hint

*lavish praise on them at some function and have a skald boast about how they will deal with some problem - soon enough either they do 'what is expected of them' or get labeled a coward.

etc.

In general the more cynical stuff should only be necessary in Anuire, Brechtur, Khinasi - the Rjurik are described as being very clannish and pulling together in the main so jarls should want to contribute - in exchange for the proper respect of course. The downside of getting any vassal to contribute is that they gain prestige and you risk losing it...

To me jarls are ready-made lieutenants, champions, etc. Most have minimal income, if they sponsor the 'summer festival of the folk' or some such then they've paid enough - mostly they should provide the odd unit of scouts and suchlike at most.

[Rey]

I've written most of that info on Hogunmark. I used the source from Highlands and PS.
In PS it says that the queen Freila is gone, but I've put her in anyway. Someone has to be there instead, and for the time being, I didn't put any jarl, regent or PC. The situation is similar to one in Stjordvik where you could put Varri as king, but the PS assumes he abdicated in favor of PC or someone else.

About the jarls and tribes. There are settled tribes and nomadic tribes in Hogunmark. You get the picture, no permanent settlements - no jarldoms. And some of the provinces only serve for a short period of time to one or two nomadic tribes. There is no official info on what you ask, but if you want it, I can fill in the gaps. In fact, I have to fill in the gaps anyway, 'cause I never finished it. :o

[kgauck]

The problem is that the PS is a printed document that is conventionally read from start to finsih, while the wiki is not. One can enter anywhere (even from off-site) and wander about from link to link. So dropping in references to the regent being dead (or missing or retired) needs to be contextualized every time is occurs. The ideal situation is to contain the information in its own section or page rather than drop it in without warning.

[Sorontar]

One of the reasons I asked the original questions is that according to the Varrig's story, Varrig of the Halskorrik tribe was made the Jarl of Valkheim long ago. Yet nowhere is it clear who holds that position now. If the Domain table from the wiki is correct, Valkheim's regent is the Queen. Therefore, there is no separate Jarl, just perhaps a local steward.

If this is correct, then I can see this "ruling from afar" issue playing into the sort of local squabbles I want to give to Valkheim.

Sorontar.

[Rey]

OK, for any ideas or info presented elsewhere, drop it here and it will be formulated for wiki. Accentuate weather is it a fan fiction, a canon or something else.

[AndrewTall]

I wonder how the nomadic clans see it? Are they jarl of 'as far as I can see wherever I may be', do they even recognise the territorial side of the law at all?

Do the jarls have authority only over 'internal issues' with the queen covering imports, exports, and possibly road maintenance laws?

Is is simply that the few sheriffs, etc who do live permanently in the 'empty' provinces simply habitually answer to the queen as the nomadic jarls are hard to find, not interested, etc - if so what happens when a jarl turns up on their doorstep demanding they answer to him/her?

[Sorontar]

Another one for you. We roughly know the size of the population in the largest city/village of any province from the province level. For instance, I have estimated Valkheim as having around 750 people in Eriksgaard because it is a underused 1/6 province.

However, we also have the nomadic tribes that move around certain provinces. How big would they be? How about around 100 people minimum and a maximum of 400. Any less and they can't hold any weight as a tribe. Any more and they are too big to be nomadic?

And what percentage could be regarded as fighting stock? One quarter? (1/4 non-fighting men & women, 1/4 nonfighting children and 1/4 elderly) or is that way off? I imagine it would be a larger percentage than a non-nomadic or urbanised population.

Sorontar

[kgauck]

750 people in a province of 1250 sq miles is a population density if 0.6 people per square mile. By this same kind of calculation, all of Hogunmark would have a population density of about 2.1 people per square mile, well under the 12.5 of the British Isles at the end of the dark ages, and one tenth of France at the same time. Given the age of the kingdom, if technology was up to the level of dark ages, you would have a population four to six times greater than I have just described. This would lead me to conclude that the people here are living as hunter gatherers from a fixed base location. They range across the whole province hunting and collecting resources, and return to their two villages to process their acquisitions.

So, I presume are the nomads in question are in addition to these, although they would be indistinguishable in most respects. The smallest breeding group needs to have 50 members, but if its possible to contact other groups for marriage exchange, its possible for groups to be smaller. Some groups, and I am more familiar with this pattern for pastoralists, but the practice makes sense for hunters, would break into groups smaller than a single family (say father, mother, and a few children go here, some of the older children go there) and re-assemble periodically into multi-family groups for information and material exchange before splitting up again. This pattern is used in my experience with water scarcity.

How fecund are the forests in terms of food production? If they are full of game, we are immediately confronted by the question of the low population in the presence of extra food. So let's presume that food is scarce (too many competitors from humanoids who also hunt, and wild animals, leaving humans as the weak competitors) that would explain very small groups seeking to eek out subsistence from a harsh environment, while returning to a secure safe place (the two villages) periodically. It also allows the weakest to stay safe while the stronger brave the dangers.

In this respect, the Rjurik values of self-reliance and independence doesn't describe the values of the whole culture, but of the hunter, the elite and respected ones who brave the dangers and return with food.

It should be noted that an explanation like this flies in the face of a domain system that is full of surplus. If the surplus is so small that the population doesn't grow, there is no surplus for the domain system. In fact, if there is no surplus to move up the cultural hierarchy, than the hierarchy doesn't exist in any practical way.

Let's look at the kinds of social organizations we might choose from:

Bands:
A band is a small, autonomous group of people (often as low as twenty, and never more than a few hundred) made up of nuclear families that live together and are loosely associated with a territory on which they hunt. A band political structure is typically found amongst societies with a hunter- gather economy. Band societies have no specialized roles. Social order is maintained through the informal mechanisms of gossip, ridicule and avoidance - in other words through public opinion.

Tribes:

A tribe is of the order of a large collection of bands, but it is not simply a collection of bands. The ties that bind a tribe are more complicated than those of bands. Leadership is personal and charismatic, and in tribal society is used for special purposes only; there are no political offices containing real power, and a "chief" is merely a man of influence, a sort of adviser. The means of tribal consolidation for collective action are therefore not governmental.

Technically, the tribe is a group of bands linked by family structures such as the clan. (The tribe being political and the clan crossing into the various bands linking people of common decent. The local groups that compose a traditional tribal society are communal and strongly social, with members linked by kinship ties.

Tribes have developed kin-based mechanisms to accommodate more sedentary life, to redistribute food, and to organize some communal services. Public opinion plays a major role in decision making.

Chiefdoms:
Chiefdoms are societies headed by individuals with unusual ritual, political, or entrepreneurial skills. The society is kin-based but more along hierarchical lines than a tribe. Chiefdoms are associated with greater population density and display signs of social ranking.

The chiefdom society is also more complex and more organized, being particularly distinguished from tribes by the presence of centers which coordinate economic, social and religious activities. Note that I have offered anthropological terms, identifying individuals with ritual, political, or entrepreneurial skills, just as we have a game that divides holdings into very similar, if not identical categories.

Whereas tribes have some grouping that can informally integrate more than one community, chiefdoms have some formal structure integrating multi-community political units. The formal structure could consist of a council with or without a chief, but most commonly there is a person, the chief, who has higher rank and authority than others. The position of chief, which is sometimes hereditary and generally permanent, bestows high status on its holder.

Unlike a tribe in which all segments are structurally and functionally similar, a chiefdom is made up of parts that are structurally and functionally different from one another. A ranking system means that some lineages, and the individuals in them, have higher or lower social status than others.

Chiefdoms can be divided into ones that take on a more simple, kin-based organization and those that are more complex where there is a more developed regional hierarchy with a series of lesser chiefdoms supervised by a head chief. The simpler form has centralized decision making for better mobilization of manpower and exploitation of resources than is possible in a tribal form of society. The more complex chiefdom has a greater measure of authority but still lacks a bureaucracy to administer food surpluses nor to distribute and store resources. So this kind of society can't collect RP or store GB. The society is more divided along two lines - nobility and commoners. Nobility tends to compete for leadership, prestige, and religious authority making the chiefdom relatively unstable.

The Domain system presumes a state system. But states have certain characteristics, all derived from larger surpluses, that presume a very different state of affairs than what we are discussing in a Hogunmark that has 2.1 people per square mile and a total population of 42,000 or somewhere in that vicinity. If we expect full time craft specialization, a functioning kleptocracy, centralized decision making, cities, and social stratification by class rather than kinship, we need a population with a sufficient surplus to support these things, and that implies a much larger population.

[Rey]

Kenneth, can you reveal to me the secret of how you've gotten to the population of 210,000 people in Hogunmark?

[kgauck]

I think its quite nicely explained in the post immediately before yours.

[Rey]

Yes, quite nicely done.

So, I guess all of Rjurik has a population of about 2 mil. This makes a pretty tough life, for example, for elves in Tuarhievel because there's only 80,000 of them, and I wonder how they've managed to stay alive so far and unconquered. Anuire should have at least twice the population of Rjurik because of the good climate.

Lapland in Finland resembles very much the land like north Hogunmark in Rjurik. Lapland's current population stands at about 187,777 people within 98,946 km2 of territory, which is about 1,9 persons per km2 or 4,94 per square mile.
Whole Finland has about 40/sq mile today and in mid 16th century Finland had 330,000 people, which is about 2,5 living souls per sq mile.
Compared to approx. 10-15 per sq mile in Hogunmark by your calculation.

Have you taken into account that population of migrating tribes is not counted because they do not represent the permanent inhabitants of a province? That is why 4 of Hogunmark's provinces are rated 0/7, although the tribes visit them seasonly.

By numbers given in PS, I would estimate the population to Hogunmark to 50,000 settled people and about 15,000 to 20,000 in 5 nomadic tribes for a total of 70,000, give or take a few thou. That would level up the average of 3-5 persons per square mile, which sounds a bit more reasonable.

[kgauck]

How much armor did the Lapps produce in a given year in, say 1400?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saami_Family_1900.jpg

Here is an image from 1900 of a stone age people living on the fringes of a European people about to enter the age of motorized flight and the automobile.

If all of Hogunmark is an analog to the Lapps, then I am perfectly content with what I have argued above. They are not at a high medieval level of technology or social organization, but rather exist as a stone age people on the fringes of a dark age people (the Taelshore). They live in bands, groups of five to eighty, though sometimes as many as a few hundred peolpe, without craft specialization or political organization. They have no clans or tribes, chiefs, or head-men. No villages, just temporary settlements. No surplus for merchants, priests, or chiefs (although without role specialization, these people are outsiders) so no holdings.

If the Lapps are the analog from Hogunmark than everything is a zero holding.

This is not how I see Hogunmark.

[Rey]

I wrote that Lapland resembles only the very north of Hogunmark, harsh and mostly unsettled, the rest of the domain is compared to Finland. Comparison is only in terms of population, not technology or anything else.
For example, Eskimos are non-violent people who have no word for war, hence, it would not be possible to rate their armor production, because they don't fight battles.

[kgauck]

Eskimos

They don't have war, because war requires a higher level of social order than they possess.


Comparison is only in terms of population, not technology or anything else.

Population determines technology and nearly everything else cultural.

[Rey]

You don't need that much higher social order to plunge a harpoon in someone's chest and cause two tribes to kill each other over an ice cube.

And nobody says that you can't just grow vegetables, go fishing and then hump like the rabbits rest of the time. :)

[kgauck]

Fighting is not the same as war.

In Birthright we have rules for raising troops and maintaining troops through a system of taxation and bureaucracy. A surplus is captured from labor by domains, and then they can spend that accumulated wealth on people who have given up productive labor, at least while their leaders summon them to war. This is war.

Feuds, civil disorders, clashes between two peoples other than war are handled as random events (or planned events), not as a kind of war. Surely in a Birthright context we don't need to define where between a man stabbing another with a harpoon and the battles between Avanil and Boeruine one kind of fighting ends and war properly begins. Birthright presumes states, surpluses, full time leaders, not bands fighting over hunting grounds. While primitive groups may lurk about in the background of Rjurik society, they are presumed off books. What is on the books? What gets recorded, tracked, and counted? A domain system which represents a state, guild, and temple hierarchy reflecting complex social organization.

[Rey]

Nevermind, I see other domains have been changed, too. Adjust what the province level means in terms of population so the rules are consistent.

[stv2brown1988]

From recollection RP from vassalage occurs after the bloodline cap comes in - so it can be used by a king with a low bloodline score to increase RP income via vassals - the capped vassal doesn't get to tithe for free.

To me jarls are ready-made lieutenants, champions, etc. Most have minimal income, if they sponsor the 'summer festival of the folk' or some such then they've paid enough - mostly they should provide the odd unit of scouts and suchlike at most.

Thanks for the first paragraph. I like your ideas on making vassels contribute. But to continue, do you consider the Jarls to be indepent regents in a vassalage agreement with the King/Queen? How else do they earn money they might contribute? Or do you let them have 1-2 GBs per turn that they could contribute if the player can make a plausible argument for it? (Maybe by a Decree action?) Do you treat the Jarls differently in Hogunmark than Halskapa where (according to the PS) they each want to be king/queen?

I don't see them as Lts very well because they all seem to have their own motivations on a domain scale. I think they are more like small time regents, if they don't already have holdings maybe they should create level 0 holdings for their provences. At least this way they have a seat at the table. I feel the same about Nobles in Anuriean realms. I just don't see where they get their power from or why a Ruler should pay them anymore attention than anyone else. (I think Kenneth explained it in an older post, but I'd have to look for it again, because I forgot what he wrote.)

[AndrewTall]

I like your ideas on making vassels contribute. But to continue, do you consider the Jarls to be indepent regents in a vassalage agreement with the King/Queen?

Vassalage in which sense? Regency rules or the 'owes fealty' sense? Generally the latter, possibly the former as well - particularly for those with more significant holdings. I'd suggest that a rule for 'annual income/payments' be added to BR to allow for these 'minimal regents' to earn and contribute.


How else do they earn money they might contribute? Or do you let them have 1-2 GBs per turn that they could contribute if the player can make a plausible argument for it? (Maybe by a Decree action?)

Ken suggested that as holding income represents "profit" that those lower down in the social chain would also have their own "profit" that is implicit in domain income. As such the jarl of a province might get 1/3 or 1/2 the Gb that the province ruler gets - which is spent on their goons, courts, given as charity, spent on minor works, etc and so not generally available for use on 'surplus' expenditure. The issue of 'what if I am jarl and king' can be resolved by saying that the PC then needs a right hand man to act as jarl-in-all-but-name while they are ruling.



Do you treat the Jarls differently in Hogunmark than Halskapa where (according to the PS) they each want to be king/queen?

The jarls of Halskapa - and other examples of independent regents like Rohrmarch - could be province rulers in their own right, or simply not aid the ruler with their law holdings - something I'd generally assume if the relationship between ruler and jarl was good and the topic relating to the ruler's sphere of influence.

Jarls, and for that matter unnamed nobles in other realms, would then have gold and perhaps regency to contribute if the regent was sufficiently persuasive - as a GM I'd be tolerant of an approach from a ruler who has been generous with power, but likely refuse a request from a god-king tyrant type who would have crushed the nobility.


I don't see them as Lts very well because they all seem to have their own motivations on a domain scale.

All Lts have their own motivations - any lt who says otherwise are either fanatically loyal - and dangerous as a result, or deceptive - and equally dangerous.


I think they are more like small time regents, if they don't already have holdings maybe they should create level 0 holdings for their provences. At least this way they have a seat at the table. I feel the same about Nobles in Anuriean realms. I just don't see where they get their power from or why a Ruler should pay them anymore attention than anyone else.

Rulers should pay attention - and lots of it - to the 'invisible tiers' of nobility because that is what gives them their power - the army commanders, mayors, sundry officials, etc will almost all be minor nobles. The ruler is king/queen typically because they are the highest ranking / best connected noble - any ruler who disdains the higher social echelons will suffer intrigue, corruption, unrest, etc routinely as the rest of the nobility withdraw their aid or even turn hostile. Add the increased risk of peasant revolt and the ruler who ignores their nobles is doomed - the nobility holds the wealth (that, ultimately, is why they are noble) and thus the power even if they are below the surface domain-wise.

For a rules mechanic position, disdaining/ignoring the nobility should cripple law holdings, reduce province morale, increase the chance of negative random events, and give rival rulers better intelligence on the PC realm as the scorned nobles are courted by the PC's enemies.