Blood Skull Barony

[kgauck]

Discussion thread for Blood Skull Barony (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Blood Skull Barony). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[kgauck]

The Rjurik Highlands says there are minotaurs in the Blood Skull Barony. I never used minotaurs in BR (not to say they aren't in the Maze or other places) and have not mentioned them yet in realm descriptions. I rather think they were thrown in there and don't really belong. We have minotaur NPC's decribed, no images of minotaurs in a Blood Skull context, or even any named minotaurs. They aren't Celtic or Viking, and we do have mention of fhoimoriens, a celtic giant. I think we're fine with orogs, goblins, fhoimorien, and "others" by which I intend ogres, giants, and trolls in small numbers. If these three races aren't enough, we could elevate trolls, which are much more Norse than minotaurs.

Anyone dedicated to minotaurs willing to pitch for their inclusion?

[Rey]

Minotaurs sound good. Especially in PS of Stjordvik where they rammed into Great Oak Wall. Gave me chills imagining it. :)

[kgauck]

There is no Oak Wall. Please. A people who worship a forest god build a wooden wall around a kingdom? Is this a forest god who hates forests? Do a little math, this kind of project would deforest the kingdom in a few years. The labor requirements to upkeep this wall would be build-the-pyramids kind of labor. Ninja gnomes with lasers that shoot out of their eyes make more sense than the Oak Wall.

[Rey]

LoL.

It's a blessed monument for one nations survival. It was built from thick forest of tall oak trees and Stjordvik had to import mast timber for 100 years. They've only cut down half the forests in domain. And druids worked overtime to wash the dishes. :)
Besides, it's fantasy. Like elven forest where you lose track of time if you're human. That's something I'd not buy.
The wall was continually repaired and upgraded for centuries because its main portion was finished in -438 HC. And you can see it from the Moon. :D

[kgauck]

If Erik allows this, he's a fraud, and the Rjurik people are frauds, and frankly the whole setting is a fraud. I don't forgive Doug Stewart for this. We put up with so much environmentalist "flavor" in this setting, to get this nonsense is worse than the Monkey King on steroids.

[AndrewTall]

A much more Rjurik - and effective - method would be to try and build something like Offa's Dike or Hadrian's wall - wood burns and rots. Piled stone and ditches endure.

The purposes of the barrier is in any event to stop raiders carting off goods, I see the Rjurik as <quite good> at tracking down and slaughtering raiders so I never really saw what they needed the wall for - perhaps a wall across a key pass, but that's about it.

A thick barrier of near-impenetrable thorny bushes grown overnight by Erik to protect his people? Well maybe I might let them get away with that too...

Minotaurs may not be Celtic, but they are classic human-with-monster-head beast-men created by Azrai types to add to gnolls and any other freaks you want to see. Not quite sure <why> we need them or how they survive a genocidal purge for lebensraum from the orogs though.

[Rey]

Erik wasn't god then.
It's survival and final settling down after long run from the Shadow. How would you fill? You'd build a fish wall just to have safe haven for your people, finally.

[kgauck]

No one else built walls. No one else thought to cut down 10,000 trees per mile of wall every three years (that's 2 square miles of deforestation every decade per mile length of the wall - Stjordvik has slightly over 5000 square miles giving them about 20 years to go from fully forested to total desert.

And Reynir is who exactly?

[Rey]

Only Chinese built the wall of those proportions in our world. Even in my country there is a wall that had purpose like the Chinese, but smaller in proportions and perhaps 90% of people even in my country don't know it exists.

There is no information about how much forest was cut down, in what proportions or over what exact period of time, and how big was the forest when Stjordvik was first settled, at least to my knowledge. And please correct me if I'm wrong. I agree, it's a lot of wood.

And BTW, I wasn't the first to mention Erik, not even Reynir.

[kgauck]

Stone has a longer shelf life than wood.

[Thelandrin]

I say go with the trolls. After all, we don't need the entire monster menu in every region.

[Cargaroth]

I'd definatly go with trolls or ogres instead of minotaurs. Keep minotaurs reserved for the Maze or somewhere where their distinctiveness is harnessed (see Krynn). As for the great oak wall, I prefer the idea that it might be something that Erik might have grown, rather than constructed by the rjurik. A huge wall of thorns is good, or perhaps a densly backed grove of oak trees, semi setinent and resistant to fire (think of the Huorns of Tolkien). of course the orogs can tunnel underneath ...

[Lee]

In a message dated 6/17/2008 10:06:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

Anyone dedicated to minotaurs willing to pitch for their inclusion?



Ghuralli might want to.

Lee.

[Rey]

Stone has a longer shelf life than wood.
That's why wood in the great oak wall is mixed with whole bunch of stuff and maintained, upgraded and fixed for centuries, where in dire need.
I'm thinking, why didn't they burn the darn thing whole this time. It would've been a nice bonfire. :)


As for the great oak wall, I prefer the idea that it might be something that Erik might have grown
Erik the High Druid or Erik the god?
If he did it as a High Druid, he must've lived for more than 500 years. As for the god, he became one about 450 years later.

"The regents have staffed, maintained, and upgraded the Great Oak Wall since its completion in -438 H.C."
Tough feat, in any case.

[ShadowMoon]

trolls and ogres please...

minotaurs doesn't really fit, imho...

[Rey]

And Ghuralli has a moose head. :D

[kgauck]

I'm actually sorry I asked.

[Rey]

Just relax and take it easy, kgauck. I'm having a laugh, we all should.

And don't dismiss something if it seems impossible and screwed up at a first glance. We can work it out if we want to. Things that aren't mentioned can be interjected.
I'm having hard time with accepting the Shadow world. Perhaps I'm just misinformed.

Nevermind, what about that blood skull barony? What strange creatures, in the end, dwell there and aid Thrakkazz in raiding other domains? Trolls, goblins? I've read that kobolds were the slaves to the elves long time ago and all the time I didn't see or hear of a single kobold around. Have they died out? Did I miss something?

[kgauck]

Cerilia and the Birthright world establishes certain rules. Thing that happen within the game should obey those rules. That is all. Things don't need to be true, or constant with the real world. But, if they're not consistent with the rules established by the setting, the game becomes unplayable outside of any psychedelic sense.

The game establishes that there are these beings called elves. Fine. The existence of elves is thereby a given, and now we can begin to question the nature of these beings. One ought not try and make reference of the elves to the real world, for there are no elves here. One should draw first on the Birthright world as a primary source, and then to fill in gaps one might look to the broader D&D understanding, to the various mythologies of the real world which do include elves (Birthright seems to draw heavily on Celtic mythology, so that's a good place to look), to literature (Tolkien is a favorite of many, I prefer to look in an Arthurian direction).

Something like the Shadow World is established by the setting. Its a given. Further, in line with the thoroughly Celtic feel of the setting, might look at Annwn, an idyllic otherworld, or the Land of Shadows. The Celts very keen on otherwords. Some are sparkling heavens while other are brooding hells. The veil between these worlds is easy transgressed and so seers and bards pass between them frequently. Some heroes, like Finn MacCool, Culchulainn, or Oisin, do as well. By drawing on the setting and mythology, one an construct a perfectly consistent Shadow World that makes sense in the context of the setting.

The Oak Wall contradicts fundamental setting materials and the whole tone of the setting, at least as its described. Sure one can undergo great contortions of logic and setting to create some barely plausible explanation that won't raise obvious questions as long as no one looks too hard. But its unnecessary. Stjordvik is separated from the Blood Skull Barony by a range of mountains. Surely these are a better barrier. While the orogs and goblins might have a much easier time crossing the mountains to get into Stjordvik, as Andrew pointed out, the question is often much more about preventing them from leaving with loot, and here the mountains are sufficient to prevent that. There are three places on the map where there appear to be gaps in the mountains. Wouldn't it be far more sensible to construct fortresses at these passes, or just beyond them, rather than imagine a vast wall around an entire kingdom? Why does Stjordvik, with a mountain barrier, have a wall, and Rjuvik, protected only by a babbling brook not need one? Both share all three northern provinces with the Blood Skull Barony. We know that the mountains are a barrier because we have movement rules that apply to orogs, goblins, and men (including rangers and druids) and can see that while orogs and goblins have a relative advantage with a light load, the mountains still slow them down. One needs speed to escape with loot. Rjuvik looks the much better target, yet they have no wall.

When one struggles to explain contradictions and goes to extraordinary means to do so, one needs a good reason, or else you're just straining the credibility of the setting for nothing. If one accomplishes nothing, one should not expend this extra effort and risk the damage to the setting. The technology of the wood fortifications doesn't have to be thrown out entirely. As a redoubt before the passes supported by a proper fort behind it, they can be used to achieve whatever cool effects one imagined. Likewise the druidically enhanced versions.

[ShadowMoon]

The Great Oak Wall can be turned to petrified oak wall, made by giants before the age of men... real question would be what it was guarding against, etc...

just a thought...

[Lee]

The Great Oak Wall can be turned to petrified oak wall, made by giants before the age of men... real question would be what it was guarding against, etc...

just a thought...

Well, now, that's an interesting idea.

I still agree with kgauck's strategic questioning of its necessity. Why there, and not Rjuvik? One answer: Rjuvik's got nothing to steal? The orogs are afraid of the water? {Hmm, a hostile water elemental or water spirit lives in that river?}

[ShadowMoon]

Well, now, that's an interesting idea.

I still agree with kgauck's strategic questioning of its necessity. Why there, and not Rjuvik? One answer: Rjuvik's got nothing to steal? The orogs are afraid of the water? {Hmm, a hostile water elemental or water spirit lives in that river?}


well i said before the age of men, so it would not be about Stjordvik or Rjuvik at all, or even Orogs for that matter... On the other hand, Orogs prefer subterran enviroments, so wooden wall on the surface is not a best solution to keep em out... Question of why Stjordvik is more attractive to Orogs then Rjuvik, might lie under the surface...

[Rey]

There can be many interesting and credible reasons if you try and think about it. The wall goes for 90 miles between Stjordvik and Rjuvik, too.

The only problem is, it was built during the age of men, because "In -450 HC, the humanoids attacked Halskapa and the northwestern lands in force. Sren Stjorndahlsson, Stjordvik's prince, fearing the inevitable southern expansion of the humanoids, decided to take action while the monsters were still busy in the west. He designed and constructed the Great Oak Wall. To this day, it defends the realm from the Blood Skull Barony and Rjuvik's raiders."

Maybe Rjuvik was not an interesting place since they too were interested in Stjordvik's riches. Maybe Stjordvik was a wealthy kingdom and hired giants to build the wall? It doesn't say who actually did the job.

[ShadowMoon]

well that wall in vanilla is just to much to take, considering how rjuven people keep druidic teachings in high regard...

still, it adds interesting diversion from other rjuven realms, so i would keep it, but would rather see change of who built it and why, then see it removed. in any case the wall as it is with current lore is abomination in rjuven eyes, and a bit excessive for almost any cerilian realm...

so i would (at least in my campaign) remove all lore about how stjordvik people built it at all, exchange it with hints of ancient giant legacy (hence the petrification), and keep it that way...

^^;

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, if it is a giant-built wall then it would have to be very tall - a human wall can be 12 feet and plenty big enough to stop raiders heaving over loot. A giant's wall would have to be 40 foot plus to have the same effect. Presumably the wall would be to protect the giants from other giants? I'm not sure what else they might fight that would be slowed down by a wall.

I'd rather have 'the great oak wall' be the name given to the strong wooden shields of the warriors who patrol the borders and turn back raiders. If you want it as a fortification then have it just block key passes as Kenneth suggested.

I'd expect all the Taelshore provinces to be fairly equal wealth wise - the terrain and weather are similar for the most part and that it what sets a regions population and wealth. Some realms might have poor governance making them poorer but that shouldn't persist over centuries so Rjurik's and Stjorvik's provinces should be fairly similar in wealth - at least from an orog raiders perspective of carry back food, cloths and slaves as booty.

[Rey]

Stjordvik's tribes might have brought the wealth with them.
Or there may be a rumor that they've found something that was valuable, a mineral, an ancient weapon or item of some sort that they don't know how to use it or what it is...
Could make them an interesting target. It says that blood skull orogs are so keen on getting to Stjordvik that they even plan to circle the wall by raiding through Dhoesone's province Dharilein. And even through holes in the wall they've already sent some soldiers that hide in the hills. Now, figure that one out...

(I'm such a bastard)

[AndrewTall]

Any wealth brought by the tribes was spent centuries ago - the orogs will be raiding everyone - Rjuvik, Stjordvik, Dhoesone, etc - PS Stjordvik would naturally only mention its own raids.

And yes, a fairly empty land like Stjordvik will result in some of the raider sticking around in the hope of an easier life.

As for going round, there is no need when going under, through, or over is easy - the wall is too long to be guarded so getting past it is just a matter of time. That said going round may simply be easier due to the way the land lies, or because the orogs don't mind taking another week to get home (longer away from the beady eyes of the shaman and the womenfolk).

I think though that the wall is just easier forgotten or altered - it is grossly anomalous, a very wasteful way to solve the problem, and has few if any benefits that I can think of. Most Ps's have some similar freakishness, its better to edit in this case than try to assimilate.

[ShadowMoon]

Hmm, if it is a giant-built wall then it would have to be very tall - a human wall can be 12 feet and plenty big enough to stop raiders heaving over loot. A giant's wall would have to be 40 foot plus to have the same effect. Presumably the wall would be to protect the giants from other giants? I'm not sure what else they might fight that would be slowed down by a wall.

maybe giants built a wall against sidhe and/or goblins...



I'd rather have 'the great oak wall' be the name given to the strong wooden shields of the warriors who patrol the borders and turn back raiders. If you want it as a fortification then have it just block key passes as Kenneth suggested.

might be well applied to those keeps and/or garrisons located around "now-already" numerous holes and ruins of the petrified oak wall...



I'd expect all the Taelshore provinces to be fairly equal wealth wise - the terrain and weather are similar for the most part and that it what sets a regions population and wealth. Some realms might have poor governance making them poorer but that shouldn't persist over centuries so Rjurik's and Stjorvik's provinces should be fairly similar in wealth - at least from an orog raiders perspective of carry back food, cloths and slaves as booty.

sounds reasonable...

[Thelandrin]

I like the idea of the Great Oak Wall being a metaphor for the massed wooden shields of the Rjurik defenders. As they say on http://tvtropes.org, that suggestion is made of win :P

[Autarkis]

There is no Oak Wall. Please. A people who worship a forest god build a wooden wall around a kingdom? Is this a forest god who hates forests? Do a little math, this kind of project would deforest the kingdom in a few years. The labor requirements to upkeep this wall would be build-the-pyramids kind of labor. Ninja gnomes with lasers that shoot out of their eyes make more sense than the Oak Wall.

Well, the only provinces that show up as forests are Hollenvak and Saarskaep (and this is only partially forested.) There is even a mention that 'shipwrights were forced to import mast timbers for the next 100 years.) And when they speak of upkeep, 'the varied materials and methods employed through the Wall's history have made it appear much like a patchwork dam'.

It appears, based on the walls description, that they took inspiration from Hadrian's wall in England (122 AD.) That was a fairly large undertaking and consisted of stone, turf, and wooden structures depending on the area.

I assume the sponsor of the tribe would overlook or assist his chosen tribe through priests/ druids growing or accelerating growth of trees for this endeavor. Or, take a page from Hadrian and say the wall was named in honor of their god, had subtle use of Oak but resembled the construction of Hadrian's.

[kgauck]

Its still a wall with no purpose, or a purpose better served at infinitely less cost by other means.

[Sorontar]

It keeps the rabbits out?
:^)

Sorontar

[kgauck]

Well, in that case!