How about a SIMPLE BR/4e conversion?

[gloriousbattle]

I imagine this thread is not going to be popular with a lot of the regulars to this site, but, nothing ventured...

Anyway, I have been playing BR since it came out in 2nd ed, and really love the game. I wanted to give it a go in 3e, but, quite frankly, I found the downloadable 3e version to be an unplayable 187 page monstrosity.

It seems to me that original BR should be interfaceable (that a word?) with 4e using nothing more than a single page or so of rules. There just really isn't all that much that needs changing.

Has anybody tried this? Just making something very simple so that the original rules can be used, largely unchanged, with 4e characters?

Thanks

[kgauck]

I don't think the idea is a bad one, but I will point out that the kind of people who write conversions are usually those who like crunch and so like to write rules. A single page (or three page) conversion would be a great idea, but would probably come from someone's game table, rather than a project. Rather more like, he's a hand-out I gave my players.

[dundjinnmasta]

I kinda did this for my pbp game without the complex conversions that I also work on here. I just said which races aren't allowed, which ones are, where to find the changed "racial" abilites (Halflings = Shadow Jaunt, Elves/Eladrin = Sidhelien = Tiefling "ability" (now the half-orc ability Furious Assault for gheallie Sidhe) and Watersoul Genasi Swiftcurrent. I just tried Bloodlines to the domain level of the system and used the 3E version because it was written up but you could just use 2E stock as well (which I wanted to do but I needed to provide the rules for the domain system which I can't or won't do with the 2E rules).

It is probably better if you do use the 2E rules as I had to make changes to the 3E domain system because I dropped the extra 3.x skills.

[AndrewTall]

The 'simple' conversion is easy - just use the 2e or an existing 3e domain rules system, and rule that bloodline has no effect on adventure level play and that PCs can't become awnshegh or ehrshegh - done.

Getting domain rules down to 1 or 2 pages would be tough without radically changing the system though. The other big import you need is the wargame aspect. If you are playing at adventure level only then obviously neither of these is desperately important.

The one tweak you might want to make to 3e would be choosing RP collection based on class, level, or skill - I'd stick with 3e domain rules otherwise as they have fixed income, permit non-scion rulers, etc

The rest of the download is PC creation (replaced by your 4e conversion) and fluff (which needs no real change).

[gloriousbattle]

Getting domain rules down to 1 or 2 pages would be tough without radically changing the system though. The other big import you need is the wargame aspect. If you are playing at adventure level only then obviously neither of these is desperately important.

I agree, but I wouldn't be trying to get the RULES, down to that size, just the CONVERSION RULES.

Really, I think this could almost be done out of the box (or out of the pdf, as that is what my copy is). I wouldn't want to use the 3e domain system, which I think is no fun compared to BR.

[AndrewTall]

The main change to the domain rules from 2e to BRCS was the fixed income stuff - there has been a lot of hot air about the regency switch from class to skills and removal of RP base cost for actions but those are trivial by comparison. From playing I'd suggest that fixed income is vastly preferable to random as it discourages 'just in case of a bad roll' hoarding.

The bloodline changes are the regency storm, ability of unblooded types to gain a bloodline through usurpation, and various other bits that are a bit more complicated.

Probably the easiest switch would be class 'X' gets regency from holding 'Y' to allow for class changes, income as per BRCS, and otherwise 2e.

[dundjinnmasta]

I have to admit that I do enjoy the fixed taxes better the random ones and the beginning of domain turns go so much faster that way too! I would definitely use the fixed income as it really is backwards compatible as it only deals with the level of the holding.

[AndrewTall]

Some of the changes, like the court actions, I found less useful - they can really stretch out the turn in PBEMs for example, but they were an attempt to broaden the 'any number of similar tagalongs' that 2e had which only helped certain kinds of regents.

I think that most of the other changes were fairly minor or 'flavor', but I didn't get to play 2e much so could be wrong.

[Diongham]

If you want something SIMPLE try playing the birthright setting in a rules-lite system like FUDGE or FATE. Both easy to pick up and play and are easy to add pretty much anything you could think of for anything.

[Raesene Andu]

There is certainly no reason why you cannot just use the original rules and substitute in the new 4E rules for adventuring/classes/etc. This has always been possible and indeed a lot of people have done this in the past.

However, you have to remember that the BR setting is no longer in print, and what the BRCS did quite well was give newcomers to the setting a downloadable set of rules to use.

[irdeggman]

I agree, but I wouldn't be trying to get the RULES, down to that size, just the CONVERSION RULES.

Really, I think this could almost be done out of the box (or out of the pdf, as that is what my copy is). I wouldn't want to use the 3e domain system, which I think is no fun compared to BR.


Remember the 2nd ed to 3.0 "conversion" rules that WotC originally put out?

It ran around 25 pages.

Now for BR you need to address, bloodlines/bloodabilites, domain rulership and the war rules.

I just don't think you could make a 1 or 2 page "conversion" rules to cover it.

WotC specifically said not to bother trying to convert from 3.5 to 4th ed because the game system/mechanics were so drastically changed.

Now try to to that back to an earlier edition and it becomes exponentially more difficult.

But if you can do it, great. A lot of people would appreciate it.

[bbeau22]

I have honestly have been working on a simple 4th edition BR rule set. There are different levels of how simple to make it.

Simple

- Use the races directly from the PHB (don't include the non-fitting ones)
- Uses classes from the PHB that are already in 2nd edition BR.
- Keep blood ablities as they are.
- Use the 2nd or 3rd edition rules on realm and regency on your preference.

Moderate

- Same as above other than
- Include differences for regional races of Birthright humans.
- Change blood abilities into at once, encounter, per day abilities to match 4th edition.
- Revise regency gains on skills because skills work slightly different.

Extensive

- Change how domain actions work to match how 4th edition actions work.
- Change war to match more like 4th edition.

I promise to have something posted or on Wiki soon.

-BB

[dundjinnmasta]

Remember the 2nd ed to 3.0 "conversion" rules that WotC originally put out?

It ran around 25 pages.

Now for BR you need to address, bloodlines/bloodabilites, domain rulership and the war rules.

I just don't think you could make a 1 or 2 page "conversion" rules to cover it.

WotC specifically said not to bother trying to convert from 3.5 to 4th ed because the game system/mechanics were so drastically changed.

Now try to to that back to an earlier edition and it becomes exponentially more difficult.

But if you can do it, great. A lot of people would appreciate it.

Actually... Wizards released a small conversion guide for systems older then 3e. Also it really isn't that hard to convert as long as you know that you aren't going to get an exact conversion but you can get a theme conversion most of the time.

[Green Knight]

I have honestly have been working on a simple 4th edition BR rule set. There are different levels of how simple to make it.

Simple

- Use the races directly from the PHB (don't include the non-fitting ones)
- Uses classes from the PHB that are already in 2nd edition BR.
- Keep blood ablities as they are.
- Use the 2nd or 3rd edition rules on realm and regency on your preference.

I promise to have something posted or on Wiki soon.

-BB

How do you manage to keep blood abilities as they are? As written in "e or the BRCS they have relevance to 4E, have they? Some conversion is certainly needed...

[bbeau22]

I think that in any realistic conversion you would have to re-do them ... and to be honest most of them aren't all that hard. It would just be time consuming.

If you just wanted to slap 4th edition rules on a campaign and use Birthright rules the blood abilities would mostly take common sense.

- Many abilities just have stat boosts, resistances, detections. Those for the most part just jump right over. Although there aren't many detections in 4th edition there is no reason why Birthright couldn't have them.
- For attacking abilities you would probably still have to re-examine. Even if they aren't changed you might have to include a few key words to know how they interact with other characters.
- Healing blood ability would need to change.

Hmmmm

Yeah could still be problematic. Wouldn't be pretty.

-BB

[Green Knight]

The only pretty (and simple) solution I see is:

Make the Scion feat; it gives access to 'blood abilities'. These are just like any other abilities gained by class and level, only the 'scion' can pick from them (the blood abilities) rather than the usual class features. A bit like 'multiclassing'...in fact...a LOT like it :)

No real additional power, just more variety. Doesn't change or break the core mechanic, just adds a little diversity.

[Sorontar]

Taking the "blood abilities as a feat-like ability" line, could the bloodline score be used only as either
1) a precondition for a blood ability, and/or
2) a measure of the level or capability of the blood ability?

ie. there is no measure of "how many abilities you can have" because of they are all scion "feats".

For instance,
Blood ability: regeneration
Precondition: Bloodline score of at least 10.
The character can regenerate at the rate of score/10 points per turn.

For those who want to keep things simple, ignore tainted/minor/major/great/true. For those who want to keep them, give each level a set of mega abilities which allow them to manipulate their bloodline or abilities. Tainted and minor might get nothing. Major might be able to have virtual blood of an extra 10 points per month, but at the cost of one point per year. Great and True might have even better options.

Sorontar

[dundjinnmasta]

I have the simplest solution. There is already a third-party Noble class that makes use of the "Bloodline" power source. It is a multi-class feat in the same vein as the Spellscarred and Dhampyr... This will very much settled the need for a host of bloodlines then with a few tweaks you can have a Birthright Noble Scion.

A) You have to add a Bloodline ability score. I would suggest using the original BRCS conversion and making it equal to a standard stat. You can even take the entire conversion for regency from the original BRCS. Keeping it on par with the other ability scores means that you can substitute it for the Noble powers in some places.

B) Create Bloodline feats that function the same way as Channel Divinity, basically giving the Scion an extra encounter power. Using Channel Divinity as a template means that balance shouldn't be awkward at all and you now have specific Bloodline abilities for each line.

And BLAM. You now have a Birthright, Bloodline-specific multi-class Noble Scion.

If you want to get move complex then I would agree partially with Sorontar above, ignore basic trained/minor/major/great/true. Make a Great Scion Paragon Path for your players. Epic Destinies are great because you could have a True Scion as well as you can go as far as to have an Epic Destiny for Awnsheghlien and Ehrshegh.


P.S: The Noble class is created by Alea Publishing and you can get it as a standalone product at driverthrurpg.com or rpgnow.com or you can get their Adventurer's Guide to Cthonia which is the campaign setting book.

[irdeggman]

Actually... Wizards released a small conversion guide for systems older then 3e. Also it really isn't that hard to convert as long as you know that you aren't going to get an exact conversion but you can get a theme conversion most of the time.


For 4th ed?

Regardless, my original point still exists (and subsequent posts serve to emphasize it) - it really would be almost impossible to do this with a "simple" 1 or 2 page sheet of conversion rules due to the complex nature of the setting.

[dundjinnmasta]

Yes. Though it was for converting classic adventures...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080530a

[Mirviriam]

3.0/3.5 ED had some serious tweaks needed in their domain spell sections too

[Gallowglacht]

Would reskinning atifacts as holdings work as a simple 4e conversion?