Fun or Greed

[Lord Eldred]

One problem some players have with Birthright is that it focuses more on role play than collection of treasure. What should D & D be about Fun or Greed?

[morgramen]

Fun most definietly.

Power and wealth is great, but should not be the only reason for gathering to play a game - D&D in particular. There are just too many other ways to play and enjoy the game. Unlike Monopoly or Risk, the 'winner' is often times harder to diferentiate. Is it the guy with the most magic items and most complex formula for his BAB??

Personally, I think this guy would be the looser - especially in a Birthright game.

Take Carilon Alam; a 2nd Level regent. He's a big time player in the political tapestry, as big (if not bigger) than the 10 - 12 leveled fighter regents. Alam's BAB is much worse than Tael's for example, but I think Alam might be even more dangerous than the Iron Baron. You don't get that sort of dynamic in a standard FR campaign for example.

In short - power and presitge comes in many forms. Explore the possibilites. Expand your scope of thought, and re-evalute your concept of what a Role Playing game is really about. The more you imagine, the better chance you have of being hte winner.

Oooo ahhhH!!! Zen (or is it "Xen"??)
I must now go and meditate...

[Lord Eldred]

So far the fun is winning :) Maybe it is in the way I wrote the poll ;)

[dmferry]

Hmm if you want to win you must play an other game than DND. I am in it for the FUN and my players are in it for the fun to.

Players compare the characters with each other and some are better then the others. :P

[Lord Eldred]

noone honest enough to admit they like to play for the collection of material goods?

[Magian]

It all depends on the character that I play and the goals I set for them, but regardless my personal goal is fun

[Lord Eldred]

Magian, I am not talking about your characters. We all have charaters that we have played that have been greedy. That is part of the fun of roleplaying but have you had the player who is so greedy for their character they cheat. Since I am all about the role playing and not about trying to win (which there is no way (unless you are in tournament) but I have seen players who think there are winners and losers), I have had a problem with people who give their characters stuff that they didn't get in game play. That is what this thread is about!

[blitzmacher]

Greatfully the players in my group like to play for the fun of it, not to gather a horde of goodies, though they try. But I have played with one person who liked to cheat on his dice rolls, but the DM knew so nasty things kept happening to that guys characters.

[Temujin]

Personally, I prefer to play for fun and character achievement. Character achievement is of course different from character to character, and that can sometime mess up a game if the dm doesn't learn to adapt. But that's all part of the fun, isn't it?

[Lord Eldred]

Then you know what I am talking about! This guy wasn't cheating on his die roles. He just kept having stuff that I had no idea where he gotten it from so I had a group of thieves steal the magic weapons that I couldn't trace or the magic spell he was using that I didn't know he researched just fizzled out. It took care of the "cheating" by compensating for it but then the guy thought I was picking on him and thus he quit. I guess it all worked out in the end.

[Temujin]

I agree with you that all worked fine in the end. Some of my players(particularly one major power-monger) find hard to stomach my policy of "If the dm(me) doesn't know about something, it doesn't exist, never happened and cannot work." Its kind of a draconic measure, but I've had harsh problems with players stating things retroactively("An ogre, uh? You know, its likely my character would have listened to the door before opening it.") or me having to say "Uh? Your character can do that?". Well, no didn't, no can't. If you can't think of it when its the time to say it, too bad, and if you don't trust me enough not to make some "bad dming" (i.e. stepping in to prevent you from doing something legit on a fiat), then why the hell are you still playing with me?

Na, players shouldn't be doing this, they shouldn't HAVE to be doing this. And if they do, that's a major problem for me.

[Magian]

Lord Eldred said:

Magian, I am not talking about your characters. We all have charaters that we have played that have been greedy. That is part of the fun of roleplaying but have you had the player who is so greedy for their character they cheat. Since I am all about the role playing and not about trying to win (which there is no way (unless you are in tournament) but I have seen players who think there are winners and losers), I have had a problem with people who give their characters stuff that they didn't get in game play. That is what this thread is about!

end quote:

I think my post touched on this even though your original question had nothing so specific to lead me in that direction.

[Lord Eldred]

I just reread your post and I don't know why I mentioned your name in my last post. :P :) ;) I just get caught in the passion of the argument!

[Lawgiver]

I think half the fun is opposing greed.

[Magian]

I understand Lord Eldred it means you really like the game which proves to me that TSR screwed up by not continuing it because it is not dead.

[Lord Eldred]

Birthright lives in the hearts of all who have become members of this site. Now if we could only get Wizards of the Coast to realize the big mistake that TSR made by not continuing on with this world!

[Magian]

Who needs Wizards?

We have each other.

[Lawgiver]

Thanks for the sentiment Magian, but until you get that Touch of Decay bloodpower fixed... I'm not giving you a hug.

[Lord Eldred]

Aww come on Lawgiver...give Magian a hug...it won't hurt you!

[Lawgiver]

No, No... By all means you first... I insist.

[Lord Eldred]

Opens his arms wide and says "Anyone for a hug?"

[Lawgiver]

(He doesn't smell to bad...what the heck) Embraces Lord Eldred.

[Lord Eldred]

::Hugs Lawgiver:: Slaps him on the back and says "Now doesn't that make you feel better?"

[Lawgiver]

Swell...

[Lord Eldred]

I am not quite sure I am convinced by your response Lawgiver :P

[Lawgiver]

GOLLY GEE!!! WOW THIS IS GREAT!!! ITS LIKE A HUGE WEIGHT WAS JUST LIFTED OFF MY CHEST! THANK YOU LORD ELDRED. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE WITHOUT YOU!!!!

Better?

[Lord Eldred]

:P :) ;) MUCH BETTER! I AM SO HAPPY THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO GET SUCH RELIEF FROM A HUG FROM ME!

[Magian]

My turn now. :)

[Lawgiver]

[pushes Lord Eldred forward] After you my friend.

[Lord Eldred]

After the way you responded to me, I am not sure I want any part of Magian and if he really has that rotting thing I am not sure I want to go first. ::Steps back behind Lawgiver and gives him a little nudge:: No, no after you!

[Lawgiver]

No, no, don't be bashful... after you.
(The image of those two crazy gophers from looney tunes comes to mind)

[Lord Eldred]

I am not bashful...just polite...after you!

[Lawgiver]

OH wait! whats that I hear... Sounds like a scuffle outside. I must go... to um... make sure everything is alright. Perhaps a fair citizen is in need of help. Oh well, maybe next time Magian. (winking at Eldred on the way to the door).

[Lord Eldred]

Yes, yes, I hear it too. I should go help you Lawgiver. See you Magian perhaps next time. ::Runs to the door pretending to draw his sword::

[Magian]

Hey we can all go together and hold hands just like in the wizard of oz, follow the yellow brick road....

[Lawgiver]

As long as I'm not Dorothy or the scarecrow...

[Lord Eldred]

Fine Lawgiver you can be the little dog toto and I will be the Tin Man! However, I am not holding Magian's hand!

[Temujin]

You guys are Sooooo crazy! lol. What's worse is that it seems you have nothing better than to post in here *winks* Keep up the good job!

Won't somebody give me a hug? :P

[Lawgiver]

[Wraps his left arm around Temujin, holding his sword in the right... putting more distance between himself and the Magian] Come friend, we may need help.

Are you saying I drool and calling me heartless Lord Eldred?

[Lord Eldred]

Wasn't the one with no heart the Tin Man? I just didn't want to be the dog.

::Walks over puts his right arm around Temujin, holding his short sword in his left...also keeping a distance from Magian:: Does that make you feel better Temujin?

[Lord Shaene]

Lord Shaene stealthily creeps in and starts pick pocketing the babbling fools while they are distracted in their display of who knows what. then walks to the Bartender um, another ale please sir oh and heres a tip for you,(flips him a gold piece)

Lord Shaene thinks to himself (good thing im not greedy or i would have stolen their weapons too)

[Lawgiver]

[Easing behind Lord Shaene. Placing a dagger on hit throat] You know in the east they cut a man's hand off for such crimes. You are lucky I'm a forgiving man. [slipping the weapon back into its sheath] Drink up freind. Next time just try not to be so careless. [tosses hima small pouch with 30 gp that was tied to his belt...] Besides you should pay more attention to wear people keep their money. [Turns and starts to strides out of the bar as originally intended]

[Yak]

Its all about the money... yep WoC sucks out your money...

[Legolas]

WOTC is the Microsoft of the roleplaying scene.

Evil and corrupt....

[Lawgiver]

I don't think either organization is evil... though greed does seem to permeates their management descisions.

[Lord Eldred]

Most businesses exist for greed. Should we emulate that by playing the game for the purpose of greed? Would someone start a business not for a profit just to turn out games so people can be happy? Did communism have the right idea but not the right follow through? Does anyone have the answer?

[Lawgiver]

behold the deep philosophy of Eldred!

[Xander]

I hav eonly played BR a couple of times and I feel it is better in many ways than traditional Table top RPGs, don't get me wrong I'm all far collecting Magic items and treasure, but BR incorporates subjects and issues that regular table top games can't. Every now and then it wouldn't be bad to have a good old hack n slash but this can probably be accomplished through the "adventure" domain action, depending on you GM.
;)

[Magian]

What group most benefits from the type of government?

Despotism = upper class
Democracy/Republic = middle class
Communism = lower class

Failure is not a measure of a philosophy imo rather the individuals who apply them, thus the "follow through", but also we must ask what we really want before we glorify them. They may not be what we really want.

[Yak]

lol Magian, the upper class always benifits from any goverment over the long run, its just not always the same upper class.

[Magian]

What I mean is in despotism there is only upper and lower class thus the upper benefits most. In democracy/republic a middle class emerges thus they benefit the most. In communism the class system all is eliminated making only one class (according to philosophy) thus those in the lower class benefit.

What I mean by benefit is the standard and quality of living is mostly improved for the mentioned class.

[Magian]

Also communism evenly distributes the wealth (according to philosophy). For example last year 2000 the gross world income would be evenly distributed to the entire world population under this system, essentially giving every person (in the census) a $7000 income. Obviously the unemployed and homeless benefit most from this. But is this what we want as a whole?

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Communism is a novel idea but the result is that some people come to expect to receive what they haven't worked for and others can become frustrated for their lions share of the effort.

[Lawgiver]

Are we talking about the purposes and ideals of governement or Birthright?

[Lord Eldred]

While I agree with Lawgiver that we got a little off Birthright I would just like to put forth one last statement...

Governments that practiced "communism" corrupted it in such a way that the upper class is the only group that benefited. IE. Castro is rich and lives well while the people suffer.

As far as the $7000 argument. Money wouldn't really be needed in a perfect communist society. Everyone's needs would be met as long as they contributed to society. If they failed to contribute then they would be criminals against society and put in prison where they would be forced to work thus contributing and thus they would be fed. As long as there is greed in the world communism would not work.

[Lawgiver]

I chose to abstain from the debates on the form of governemnt since it was off subject. Eldred hit is right on the head with communism.

My personal vote (assuming morality whould take presidence) is actually a totalitarian form or dictatorship. Now before you breathe down my neck, let me just say that a small strong central government will always beat a bureaucracy anyday. I'm all for people's choice (assuming they can pass a minimum I.Q. test), I'm still in favor of voting. But a vote for the dictator rather than a president and congress. I can't stand twits that vote by political party regardless of the candidates qualifications. Such action is foolishness and shouldn't even be legal! In my opinion political parties should be banded. Its nothing but a method for channelling money and swaying support through extra curricular social activities (I'll leave it at that).

The judicial branch could still exist, but with much harsher penalties and speedier trials. And much fewer appeals! ... I better stop before I get to laying down the law(;)). Its a passion of mine and I tend to get irrate and opinionated rapidly (in case you couldn't tell from my countless other posts...).

[Lord Eldred]

It doesn't suprise me that the Lawgiver would passionate about laying down the law!

I would agree with the idea that the party system should be abandoned but I disagree that a vote for the best dictator would be preferable. I would like to see a direct vote. More like what democracy was intended to be. Anyone who claims that America is a true democracy is just fooling themselves.

Enough said on the politics of stuff.

Birthright should be played for the fun of playing the politics of a fantasy world!

[blitzmacher]

I agree, the political parties should be abandoned, but the U.S. is not a demacrocy, it is a democratic/Republic. At the time of forming the government it seemed the best way to be able to represent people from even the most remote areas of the country, and it was. However, given todays technologies it is very possible to establish a true democracy.
As for the Judicial branch, it needs revamped in a bad way, since it is the only branch that has no real checks on it to keep it balanced. When was the last time you heard of a judge being impeached, or a judges desicion vetoed, and not by another judge. The Great Wizard of OZ has spoken.

[Lord Eldred]

That is why I said that anyone who claims America is a democracy is fooling themselves!

Now back to the original question...who voted that greed is what the game should be about...I still don't get why!

[brownie]

You never with the game or it is up to the person what is more important. Think about it people no matter what this game is fun or wy would you be playing it. Alittle common sense there. WHat is better magic or money. Well you have to think about it. What suites your character better. Are you a regent and need the gold for army' s and navy's. are you a ruler that demands tribute with RP. Are you a guilder and receive both. You have to decide what you are going to build. WHen people say that is how you create a character at the beginning. I know i am always changing my character and differnt ideas. I know i changed my ideas a few times about prestige classes for new goals that the party has to do or how i can create the best name for me. Like you may have read in my other messages i prefer thiefs and guilders. Why be a regent and mages which dont knock me are good but if you can run a successful guilder you are more powerful than anyone besides the gods. You create trade with one regent and another but those to regents are enemy's. You have to learn to profit from anyone. That is why everything balances out. You cant have one without the other.

[Lord Eldred]

Then Brownie, let me ask you this, if the person can only have fun by cheating to get everything that they want, is it worth playing with that person?

[Lord Shaene]

Bah, leave Brownie alone lord Eldred, he obviously is a smart person and knows what hes talking about, he plays a thief and a guilder. :)

[Abbess Allessandra]

So according to Brownie's message Shaene agrees with him. I wonder if you married the "church" to make a profit. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[brownie]

Well i am not into the church thing. I will get involved with another guilder or a sorcer. Then we can help eachother. My money and her realm spells. Cant beat it. And also it seems you play with a cheat. WHY??? Why play with someone that cheats. If you roll a one then you fumble and hack someone in your group or throw your weapon. Your hands get sweaty and slippery and it is fun trying to find your weapon during a battle as you dodge attacks.

[brownie]

As i was hitting enter i thought of something. IF you have to cheat to get something then you are not playing your character. Now think if you cant get the poison you want then take the skill and find the ingrediants. If you want deadly poison the pay someone to go out and find some black lotus's. you never have to cheat. Think of ways around it. It might take longer but it is well worth the roll playing in the end. If you have a good DM then he will give you extra points for excellent roll play and great ideas.

[Lord Shaene]

Brownie, we dont have any cheaters in our group, and Abbess I was merely saying that since he was a guilder and a thief his word must hold merit. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt

[brownie]

Thanks i think. Me as a guilder you have to choose when to make the deals that best suite you and then you might have to break them for something better. Be open and have fun.

[Sellenus]

Its always about fun... any other ambition is in character.

[Lord Shaene]

hehe breaking deals can be fun, its causes all sorts of havoc and you have to be creative on how to get out of it, although never break a deal with me that would be most unwise :)

[brownie]

i may never break a deal with you but everything can bend. You have to choose who and when to break up a good or bad deal.

[Lord Eldred]

Brownie I would like to clarify something that Lord Shaene said as his DM. We no longer have any player cheats in our group. If you have someone that rolls a one and quickly changes it when they think no one is looking you have to kick them out of your group wouldn't you agree?

With that said, I can't say that we don't have any character cheats in our group.

[brownie]

I would certainly agree. That is just like saying i rolled a 20 and you pick it up before anyone can see. But you have to live with it sometime.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by brownie
I would certainly agree. That is just like saying i rolled a 20 and you pick it up before anyone can see. But you have to live with it sometime.

As a Dm you don't have to live with it sometimes. You force your player to reroll. If you roll an honest 20 then you as a player shouldn't be in such a hurry to pick up the die and hide the result.

[brownie]

That is true. When i played with one DM he had a rule that we had to use the big dice. Not the little small ones. Another one of my DM's rolld everything and you told him what you were doing and the DM would roll everything. THat is one way to do things.

[Sellenus]

People actually cheat? No way!

[Princess Emerald Greybear]

Greed? Whats the point? It's not like the one with most when he dies wins.... you can't win. In my opinion, I think cheaters should face a Terrasque and the recieving end of the DM's boot!

[Sellenus]

Princess, I've grown to love your subtly...

But I have to agree, Greed makes no sense in a Game. Greed is a character trait in game, if a player acts greedy and (or) cheats... he/she has serious issues.

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

I can't believe I just read this entire 8 page string which varied in topics from who is Toto to Communism.
haha, you guys crack me up. :)
AS FOR GREED OR ROLE PLAYING!
I enjoy the BR setting as it allows one to build an empire and gives you an easy system in which to do it. I've tried empire building on FR but its hard to do when you have no "gauge" to measure your success.
I enjoy the roleplaying, the trickery, the deceit and the warring.
Sun Tsu's teachings thrive on BR.

[Sellenus]

ok, maybe this is a bad time...

I'll come back later.

[Lord Eldred]

So Chaos your vote is for Roleplaying?

When you say you like the deceit, you mean the deceit you roleplay not the deceit you participate in by cheating?!

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

To answer your question directly, yes and no. Yes to roleplay deceit and no to cheating.

[Lord Valkyr]

BR for fun but I enjoy all the power & intrigue. cheating can really really destroy the experience for others so I would boot a cheater but only after a warning

[Green Knight]

You have it all wrong. The only reason for playing BR is that you get to colloect SOOOOO many magic items :P

[Lord Eldred]

Yes, since they are so common! :P And if you can't find it, just make it up and tell your DM you got it from some other adventure you played with some other DM. ;)

[Princess Emerald Greybear]

"Man, I got this dagger that gets +9 against ogres!"

[Lord Shaene]

It's too bad your too short to reach them with that Princess.
what a waste of a good weapon :P

[Chioran]

Better watch it Shaene, she is just about the right height to use it on your...

[Abbess Allessandra]

She wouldn't do that would you Emerald?

[Lord Shaene]

I only said it in jest Chioron.

(takes a step back from emerald)

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

I only said it in jest Chioron.

(takes a step back from emerald)

Indeed you best be careful Lord Shaene... A +9 to damage in that region would definately bring an ogre...er man like you to his knees. :P

[Lord Eldred]

It is apparent that someone doesn't realize that the Dwarf couldn't get the +9 bonus against a man when it is plus 9 against Ogres. With that said the dagger would still hurt if stuck in that area of Shaene! :P

[Chioran]

Shaene has nothing to worry about Lord Eldred. For emerald to hit a target that small would require a level of skill she does not posses.

But still I could understand how Emerald could confuse Shaene for an Ogre, he is, afterall, almost 3 feet taller than her.

[Princess Emerald Greybear]

Orginally posted by Abbess Allessandra

She wouldn't do that would you Emerald?

I would never do that to your husband Abbess! ;)

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Princess Emerald Greybeard


Orginally posted by Abbess Allessandra

She wouldn't do that would you Emerald?

I would never do that to your husband Abbess! ;)

Oh come on Princess, don't sell yourself short. Hahaha. Short, get it?!

[Princess Emerald Greybear]

Theres always a commode.. er.. comedian.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Chioran

Shaene has nothing to worry about Lord Eldred. For emerald to hit a target that small would require a level of skill she does not posses.


OUCH!


Orginally posted by Chioran
But still I could understand how Emerald could confuse Shaene for an Ogre, he is, afterall, almost 3 feet taller than her.

Double Ouch!

Ding! Ding! And round 3 goes to Chioran!

[Lord Eldred]

You don't say Crazy Wolf ;)

[Princess Emerald Greybear]

He's speechless!

[Mason]

And I thought there was only one comedian here.

When you look at it logistically, it doesn't matter who you hit. They'll all go down incredibly fast if you just give them a good square kick in the cough lower regions.

I once saw a friend of mine getting some serious intimidation from a school thug in year 9. Just before my friend was about to get put into a wall head first, he kicked the thug in the balls and them belted him across the face. He got detention, but the thug never bothered him again that's for sure.

For the record... his name is Ben.

[Lord Eldred]

Now a days. A kid kicks another kid in the nuts they get more than a detention from the school and probably face a lawsuit from the other kids parents.

[blitzmacher]

yes, it is a common desease in America, I think its called "Everybody has more money than me so give me an excuse and I'll sue that way I'll have enough money and won't have to work." Second thought, maybe it was shorter than that.

[Lord Eldred]

Good thing we don't have to deal with it in Birthright like we do in real life!

By the way I call it "The sue happy disease"