Copyright issues?

[Jordain Hawat]

I wrote a piece for the manticore's history. It is taken, if in bits and pieces, almost directly from blood enemies. I submited it and then took it down as I was unsure of the copyright issues. does brwiki have the right to any of the birthright products published under TSR for Ad&d? Do I need to credit the book?

[AndrewTall]

I wrote a piece for the manticore's history. It is taken, if in bits and pieces, almost directly from blood enemies. I submited it and then took it down as I was unsure of the copyright issues. does brwiki have the right to any of the birthright products published under TSR for Ad&d? Do I need to credit the book?

We are allowed to re-write, but not directly copy. If you are really worried the official permission from them is on the wiki. Our actual agreement with WOTC expired when they retracted our official fan-site status as far as I'm aware, but I think that we are ok as long as we avoid cut 'n' paste type stuff and generally honour the setting, and don't do any of their pet peeves (kill off or change major characters, other stuff that could 'invalidate their later products'.)

Adding a credit can't hurt, I think that the key point is that if someone bought BE today (not sure quite how they'd get a legit original copy but that aside) that they wouldn't feel bereft by your actions.

Edit: Hmm, Arjan put the WOTC note on the wiki although I'm not entirely sure that it helps:
http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Birthright_license_agreement

[Jordain Hawat]

well that's good then. The bit I did was taken fairly piecemeal, yet it tells the same story with no changes.

[Elton Robb]

well that's good then. The bit I did was taken fairly piecemeal, yet it tells the same story with no changes.

One thing for sure, there might be little benefit from having a publishing monopoly. Although, unless Wizards was planning to do a full update to their new D&D, I bet we'd know when everyone else knows. Unless someone was at GenCon Indy at the time.

[Dantares]

Hi! I'm new one here, and I'm impressed about how many huge work you've done for this years since 1993... many times I was searching about Birthright gorgon alliance and worldaround, and for any sing of continue of this amazing game and world ... and now I'm really happy about finding this site...

About licence and copyrights, I'm wonder if they (rightkeepers) gonna make anything one day, beacose it's more than 14 years have past away,since the PC game came in world and they still have had done nothing about continuing.

Thank You!!!

[SirRobin]

Hi! I'm new one here, and I'm impressed about how many huge work you've done for this years since 1993... many times I was searching about Birthright gorgon alliance and worldaround, and for any sing of continue of this amazing game and world ... and now I'm really happy about finding this site...

About licence and copyrights, I'm wonder if they (rightkeepers) gonna make anything one day, beacose it's more than 14 years have past away,since the PC game came in world and they still have had done nothing about continuing.

Thank You!!!

I'm still impressed with everything the members of this community have accomplished. Birthright remains, to this day, my favorite product from the entire D&D line. One of the few products prior to it that had grabbed my attention was Test of the Warlords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_of_the_Warlords). I had always been attracted to a "larger" scale and Birthright fit my preferences perfectly.

I still consider trying to make a Birthright mod for M2TW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_II:_Total_War) but, as a Mr. Mom, I lack the spare time or energy. Personally I do not expect to see any new Birthright products for the foreseeable future. I imagine its simply another intellectual property for them that they keep a hold of in case someone wants to pay to resurrect it.

That reminds me, anything ever come from the lawsuits? The ones where they didn't want them for sale as PDF's anymore?

[Vicente]

Not that I know :( At least it continues to be easy to find Birthright products in some internet shops.

[Dantares]

Hi! I'm new one here, and I'm impressed about how many huge work you've done for this years since 1993... many times I was searching about Birthright gorgon alliance and worldaround, and for any sing of continue of this amazing game and world ... and now I'm really happy about finding this site...

About licence and copyrights, I'm wonder if they (rightkeepers) gonna make anything one day, beacose it's more than 14 years have past away,since the PC game came in world and they still have had done nothing about continuing.

Thank You!!!


I had always been attracted to a "larger" scale and Birthright fit my preferences perfectly.

I still consider trying to make a Birthright mod for M2TW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_II:_Total_War) but, as a Mr. Mom, I lack the spare time or energy. Personally I do not expect to see any new Birthright products for the foreseeable future. I imagine its simply another intellectual property for them that they keep a hold of in case someone wants to pay to resurrect it.

That reminds me, anything ever come from the lawsuits? The ones where they didn't want them for sale as PDF's anymore?

I've opened Mount and blade modul system for experimental work for Birthright add'on
but it seems it's take some time for learning python scripts and they abilities for this hard but interesting testament of myself... as just some fan work it should be easy, because of many tools of the creators of the game... so as soon as possible(we all are working somewhere=), i'll replace here some link, if it is exeptable by rules of this forum. Hope to make it before end of this year...

[AndrewTall]

I've opened Mount and blade modul system for experimental work for Birthright add'on
but it seems it's take some time for learning python scripts and they abilities for this hard but interesting testament of myself... as just some fan work it should be easy, because of many tools of the creators of the game... so as soon as possible(we all are working somewhere=), i'll replace here some link, if it is exeptable by rules of this forum. Hope to make it before end of this year...

Links to related products are fine, we use the spam-o-matic on links to the other stuff :)

To edit a quote in by the way, the opening box is just "quote=name" and the ending box is "/quote", box in square brackets. Hopefully I edited you correctly chaps and was right to delete what looked like a draft post then duplicated by its own final.

[SirRobin]

I was never really attracted to Mount & Blade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount%26Blade). The fighting involved wasn't on a large enough scale for my tastes. Would love to see an updated version of Gorgon's Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright:_The_Gorgon%27s_Alliance) but I doubt we'll ever see one. Then again the TATW (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=374565) mod of M2TW is quite impressive so a mod is probably our best hope. I guess the lawsuit is still in progress or resolved out of court since I'm not seeing the pdf's available on the sites I originally bought them from.

Fortunately I still have hardback of the ones I really liked.

[Dantares]

to Andrew Tall Thanks! I've not seen the post i added so i make another one, sorry for it!

To sir Robin Gues we can make our own game, as fan game, i'm not programmer, ut now I'm trying to find a way to make some, on game development site i find many cores for game development and now (because we all most time at work) I spend hollydays in learning some language... (Python actually) and example of the guy who made Mount and blade with his wife at start, only then on version 0.3 some guys began to help him at his advantage and now it pretty qute game. So why we cant move that way?And some of you have skill's in programm languages, am I wrong? I'm nubbe but i want to do it, firstly i'm trying from making mod, and then when i'm began to anderstand the architecture of the gamedevelopment i'd love to make it. So what do you thing about?

[AndrewTall]

to Andrew Tall Thanks! I've not seen the post i added so i make another one, sorry for it!

No problem at all, it was an easy fix.

[Vicente]

to Andrew Tall Thanks! I've not seen the post i added so i make another one, sorry for it!

To sir Robin Gues we can make our own game, as fan game, i'm not programmer, ut now I'm trying to find a way to make some, on game development site i find many cores for game development and now (because we all most time at work) I spend hollydays in learning some language... (Python actually) and example of the guy who made Mount and blade with his wife at start, only then on version 0.3 some guys began to help him at his advantage and now it pretty qute game. So why we cant move that way?And some of you have skill's in programm languages, am I wrong? I'm nubbe but i want to do it, firstly i'm trying from making mod, and then when i'm began to anderstand the architecture of the gamedevelopment i'd love to make it. So what do you thing about?

The problem is not so much technical skill, but time and will. I'm sure I could re-write Gorgon Alliance by myself, but I would need a massive quantity of free time to do it, and the willpower to sit in front of my computer 4-6 hours a day and work on it. I lack both things :(

I'm sure it's more or less the same for other people in these boards.

[Dantares]

Andrew Tall -Thanks anyway!

Vincent! - ok then can you be my guide in short brief links into programming? cause I do have time and will, but luck of skills and knowlege/

First question is about engine I need for beginning the game development. In game developers site I have seen a lot of engins and i have trying blender already, but don't know if it's optimal for making such a game?

and of course I've the python 2,66 and e-books i'm started reading. only problem english not my native,I'm etnic, so it's going slow for now...:confused:

[Dyark]

Hello guys

It's been a long time since a came here :(

Still working on my Deismaar game web base and easy to use like Gorgon Alliance

Ran into some problem that I am fixing, I am trying to make it as compatible as possible so anybody who wants to run a campaign with 2nd, 3rd or fourth rules.

I am still pondering my war and trade rules and the application of it.

There is a lot of correction to make for the databse (it takes A LOT OF TIME)

At less the whole continent will be playable and expension of new region will be easy to impliment.

[Vicente]

Andrew Tall -Thanks anyway!

Vincent! - ok then can you be my guide in short brief links into programming? cause I do have time and will, but luck of skills and knowlege/

First question is about engine I need for beginning the game development. In game developers site I have seen a lot of engins and i have trying blender already, but don't know if it's optimal for making such a game?

and of course I've the python 2,66 and e-books i'm started reading. only problem english not my native,I'm etnic, so it's going slow for now...:confused:

Honestly, most languages and engines out there will be suitable to implement a clone of Gorgon Alliance :) If you have started with Python, then pygame is probably a good alternative.

I'm a .NET guy, so I'm more in the world of C#, XNA, WPF, SlimDX,... But as far as I have read python is a very nice language, with a big community, so you should have no problems finding tutorials, forum to answer questions,... Also python is used quite a lot in scripting in games (Civ uses it for example), so I'm sure there's a big gaming community out there to help.

Buuuut, there's a problem: if you are learning, this project is way out of what you can handle. Try to make first a clone of Arkanoid, or Tetris, and you'll see how hard can be to "make a game". And I'm not saying about only gameplay, but polishing the game to release status: adding menus, credits, scores, etc etc. That polishing takes time, and it's boring, but it's part of making a game too :p

My 2 cents.

[Dantares]

I'd rather to make not clone, but more advanced game. And thanks! I've got the tutorials and found the comunity, but there is some problem with python in speed of working with textures, and in postworking with pc memory about 2 GB RAM - I learned it with modding in mount and blade, cause it's writed on python and on Newton Engine with some advances in c++. and i wish to find how to make komparing in one engine scripts of python for grafic and c++ for speed abilities. Game's today are usually written with using 5-7 languages like assembler, c and c++, java, and python, and sometimes freepascal and ruby...that's short overview of what i'm learned so far :confused:

And yes - I've tryed to make one with game developer 8 - tools, it's hard and slow in progress -but i'm some sort of maniac for interesting challenge =) and i luck my last hobbies because it has no more ways for moveon. life could be boring or interesting=)

P.S. of course it's out of limits in present abilities and knowlege, but for final target it's interesting=)

And Thank you very much for this 2 billion cents =)))

P.S. vol. 2 - found Showmedo community for making some whith python 50 videolessons for start =) it comes more interesting=))))

[Dantares]

Yes! :mad:you're right! it's really hard,:confused: find a lot of engines, last one is unity 3.3. very specific, need to have 3dmax installed on pc, and good knowledge of java or c/c++... so i'm still learning python and searching for really adecvate engine. look's like i'm terning into blender 2.57. but there neet to have python 3.2 when there is no Pygame compared, anyway, i'm learning and when i'll find all I need, I think pygame should be prepered for Py3.2:D

And i have a question: may I make a new theme on forum to have you're opinions of
1) what you want from new game,
2) where you'd like to play(internet, or offline)
3) and of course to maybe found some teacher's to help me with this project, couse as I learned - you made new continent with contries and there could be new legends and rulers...

or if someone already get opened some project i'll come on help with any i can do

p.s. it's huge work will take more than one year with the speed i do it now...but i'm still hope to make it

[Magian]

The entire collection of Birthright products are available on Amazon. Ebay may also have them. Products move, so at times the stock may not be available. The .pdf collection is out there as well, but I won't get into that here. PM me for more info.

I have a question regarding a related issue. How does the copyright affect personal websites for private campaigns?

[Vicente]

Yes! :mad:you're right! it's really hard,:confused: find a lot of engines, last one is unity 3.3. very specific, need to have 3dmax installed on pc, and good knowledge of java or c/c++... so i'm still learning python and searching for really adecvate engine. look's like i'm terning into blender 2.57. but there neet to have python 3.2 when there is no Pygame compared, anyway, i'm learning and when i'll find all I need, I think pygame should be prepered for Py3.2:D

And i have a question: may I make a new theme on forum to have you're opinions of
1) what you want from new game,
2) where you'd like to play(internet, or offline)
3) and of course to maybe found some teacher's to help me with this project, couse as I learned - you made new continent with contries and there could be new legends and rulers...

or if someone already get opened some project i'll come on help with any i can do

p.s. it's huge work will take more than one year with the speed i do it now...but i'm still hope to make it

I would honestly try to avoid any design decisions if you are learning how to program, because doing both things is a monumental task. So, instead, I would clone one of the many BR rulesets that are out there.

You could clone BR 2e, but if the game is done and successful I have no clue if you would get a Cease & Desist letter from WotC.

You could clone the BRCS here in the Wiki, that one should be pretty safe.

Or you could clone the systems of other web based BR games like Empire's Twilight or Dawn of the Second Golden Age.

[Nameless One]

I've opened Mount and blade modul system for experimental work for Birthright add'on
but it seems it's take some time for learning python scripts and they abilities for this hard but interesting testament of myself... as just some fan work it should be easy, because of many tools of the creators of the game... so as soon as possible(we all are working somewhere=), i'll replace here some link, if it is exeptable by rules of this forum. Hope to make it before end of this year...

I've started a Mount and Blade Birthright module myself. Haven't worked on it for quite some time because of lack of time. If I recall correctly, I have troop trees for all human "Five Tribes" with native and community-made equipment, a barely acceptable map made with Thorgrim's Map Editor, semi-decent heraldry for all lords, all Anuirean towns, castles and villages placed and most of the Anuirean lords complete with their names, equipment and appearances. Other faction settlements and lords are also there but I haven't placed the settlements on correct places on the map nor assigned them to their lords. I've also made a script for unique regional troops. It currently works only so that Imperial Chamberlain, the leader of Anuirean Empire faction, can hire some Imperial Legionnaires and Knight of Iron Throne while hiring troops in the city of Anuire. I was planning to use the same code for special troops like Iron Guard of Ghoere, Guardians of Mhoried and the various Brecht troops.

I'll probably resume work at the end of the year. My original plan was to make a simple modification of native with altered factions, settlements, map, troop trees and community-made equipment and release it as the first beta. Afterwards, I'd make the module more and more unique in smaller increments. My final goal would be to implement all the specifics of Birthright settings: bloodlines, Awnsheghlien, non-humans, spells, unique settlements system (not bound to the M&B town/castle/village categorization), regency, etc.

So, if you (or anyone else for that matter) are interested, I'm quite willing to join forces in order to have the module completed before M&B becomes obsolete. It kind of already is with Warband and With Fire and Sword, but I prefer the original M&B because I like its animations better and because it has fewer base scripts to start working with.

btw, speaking of mods and games, I've also started a map of Anuire for CK but it's highly unlikely I'll finish it before CK2 is released, if ever. I'd like to see a mod for EU3 or CK2 as much as one for M&B, so if anyone is interested in making something like that, count me in.

[Dantares]

Nameless One! Thank's for invitation! I'm really would like to help you with the mod, firstly I'm also wanted to make it by myself, but within gathering information i became interesting in gamedev, and so, but till i'm really feel myself complete in beginning it's takes time... so untill then i'm glad to have an option to help you with this mod! Also i'll write you PM...

For Vicente -Thank you? actually it was the first thing I've made being on forum=))) i'm download all pdf which i could to get... now i'm translating this to my language :confused: :) it's also going slow...

[Thelandrin]

You know, an Anuire mod for EU III would be absolutely awesome. :)

[Dantares]

So it's not only my wish to see some interesting about Birthright's world in any game=) funny isn't it =) but i don't play in EU3 it's hardest micromanagment i ever seen... but my best wishes for it come true

[Clansman]

Hello, Just to clarify the original answer. We are not aloud to directly copy tings form the books, but must try to say the same things in our own way? I wish to add an entry for Grevesmühl and appreciate any guidance as to what I can use from the official book.

[AndrewTall]

Hello, Just to clarify the original answer. We are not aloud to directly copy tings form the books, but must try to say the same things in our own way? I wish to add an entry for Grevesmühl and appreciate any guidance as to what I can use from the official book.

Yes, you have to write it in your own words so that it isn't blatantly a copy, etc and basically doesn't stop someone from wanting to buy the original (ignoring certain practical difficulties obviously).

So say similar things in your own way. If in doubt look on the wiki page "BR.net's agreement with WOTC" which has some commentary from WOTC, or have a look at what someone else has done.

[vota dc]

I've started a Mount and Blade Birthright module myself. Haven't worked on it for quite some time because of lack of time. If I recall correctly, I have troop trees for all human "Five Tribes" with native and community-made equipment, a barely acceptable map made with Thorgrim's Map Editor, semi-decent heraldry for all lords, all Anuirean towns, castles and villages placed and most of the Anuirean lords complete with their names, equipment and appearances. Other faction settlements and lords are also there but I haven't placed the settlements on correct places on the map nor assigned them to their lords. I've also made a script for unique regional troops. It currently works only so that Imperial Chamberlain, the leader of Anuirean Empire faction, can hire some Imperial Legionnaires and Knight of Iron Throne while hiring troops in the city of Anuire. I was planning to use the same code for special troops like Iron Guard of Ghoere, Guardians of Mhoried and the various Brecht troops.

I'll probably resume work at the end of the year. My original plan was to make a simple modification of native with altered factions, settlements, map, troop trees and community-made equipment and release it as the first beta. Afterwards, I'd make the module more and more unique in smaller increments. My final goal would be to implement all the specifics of Birthright settings: bloodlines, Awnsheghlien, non-humans, spells, unique settlements system (not bound to the M&B town/castle/village categorization), regency, etc.

So, if you (or anyone else for that matter) are interested, I'm quite willing to join forces in order to have the module completed before M&B becomes obsolete. It kind of already is with Warband and With Fire and Sword, but I prefer the original M&B because I like its animations better and because it has fewer base scripts to start working with.

btw, speaking of mods and games, I've also started a map of Anuire for CK but it's highly unlikely I'll finish it before CK2 is released, if ever. I'd like to see a mod for EU3 or CK2 as much as one for M&B, so if anyone is interested in making something like that, count me in.

Warband also is more difficult to mod: for example for slowing troops you need a script, while in Vanilla just give heavy armor.
Main problem of the game is the engine: too many people in battle mean crash. But warband doesn't improve that: they just added multiplayer, diplomacy and Sarranids. They even didn't bother to add spear bracing to make Rhodok's infantry useful. Don't know if there would be a M&B 2: one key programmer announced that and then defected to another software house.
I noticed that there is TLD with LOTR and all factions, so I guess is possible to add non-humans stuff. There should be even a script to raise the party size if you use same certain type of troops: goblins don't rely on sheer numbers? With that script you can field more goblins than humans for example. It would wonderful to have all Cerilia so we can have even that gnoll realm lol.

Too bad I am very weak with python, I can just tweak some existing stuff.

[Dantares]

I'm also weak in python, besides it's really have changed from 2.6.6 for warband and native(2.5) till now 3.2 and I having lack of time, can't learn it in way it should be=) but still give free time to it... The MnB Warband is still with luck of engine problems and borders of platform it was created for... And don't forget it's only 4 men-scriptwriters(programming) done it=) so it's solide work for them=)

[Nameless One]

Guys, there's this real misleading thing with Python in M&B. You don't script for M&B in Python. You can't write Python code that will execute in the game.

M&B Module System is written in Python. It's an application that compiles your module data into a bunch of horrible text files used by the game engine. You have those .py files which are named the same as target .txt files and there's no executable code in them, only data definitions. The data defined in those files is Python data structures called lists. For example, items.py is where you enter the data about inventory items available in your module.

Scripts for M&B are in binary format. txt files for scripts actually contain decimal numbers, of all things, that represent binary instructions. A higher level scripting language is available which takes after assembly languages, of all things, and it is typed into Python files. You enter operations (equivalents of instructions in assembler) and their operands as elements of Python lists.

So, to sum it up, you don't need to know how to code in Python if you want to mod Mount & Blade. You need to know the structure of Mount & Blade data files and it's own unique scripting language which is probably the least intuitive game scripting language I have seen in my life.

btw, Crusader Kings 2 was released not so recently, and there's Magna Mundi and Fallen Enchantress coming soon. Mount & Blade and Civ4 are old but still played a lot and the scene is full of useful resources. If there's a enough initiative for modding in this community, I can sure help although I don't have much time right now.

Oh, and about Warband and TLD:
There's no spear bracing in Warband but it's easy as hell to stop the horses. They are not nearly as powerful as in vanilla. A horse stepping on a small pebble will almost instantly stop. Who needs spear bracing with that? People have implemented spear bracing in vanilla, though. Revenge of the Berserker mod has it, and possibly some others.

Goblins in TLD do have increased numbers. I think every 3rd goblin in your party increases your party capacity by 1 if I'm not mistaken. The downside is that goblin hordes are nearly unplayable because they run into logistics issues and can't catch anything on the map, which makes their morale go low real quick, then you get challenged and killed by a powerful heavily armoured goblin while you are still half-naked and armed with a spiked club. Don't know if they've resolved the problem. From what they've said when the module was released, TLD's balance problems are here to stay.

[Muaadeeb]

I'm still impressed with everything the members of this community have accomplished. Birthright remains, to this day, my favorite product from the entire D&D line. One of the few products prior to it that had grabbed my attention was Test of the Warlords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_of_the_Warlords). I had always been attracted to a "larger" scale and Birthright fit my preferences perfectly.



I ran a "Test of the Warlords" campaign for 13 years.... (BW/BC - Before Wife/Before Kids).

Actually had 2 players make it to the immortals campaign setting. (Though they were not one the same side).

Good times! Where is Doug Niles!