Awnsheghlein realms

[Bronto]

One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me completely unprepared last session by sending a huge army into the Spiderfells with the express purpose of destroying the spider. I need some help adjudicating the situation. Can anyone tell me where I could find rules concerning the maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They obviously don't follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be nice if this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight of a single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in advance for any help.

[Raesene Andu]

Having faced this situation before, this is what I've done in the past.

Simply assume that every being within the awnsheghlien realm is a member of the awnshegh's army (especially with the spiderfell). The way I do this is assume that roughly a 1/3 of the population are compatants. Now the Spiderfell is listed as a 0/7 province, but I'm assuming that they are not counting goblins etc as part of the population, so I made the province a 2/7 province with a population of roughly 6000 goblins, huge spiders, and other monsters.

Now assuming a third of them work for the spider, he gets 2000 troops or roughly ten units, plus the spider himself. Of course, the very woods of the spiderfell would be filled with traps to snare the unwary, hidden bogs, quicksand, etc, etc.

If the spider was easy to kill he would have been removed centuries ago, perhaps even back when the empire was around and the Roele's had a vast and powerful army.

[Trithemius]

> Bronto wrote:
> One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me
> completely unprepared last session by sending a huge army
> into the Spiderfells with the express purpose of destroying
> the spider. I need some help adjudicating the situation.
> Can anyone tell me where I could find rules concerning the
> maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They obviously don`t
> follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be nice if
> this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would
> also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight
> of a single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in
> advance for any help.

Well, depending on what combat resolution system you use this could be
very very easy. Military organization in BR tends to be quite similar to
that of late medieval Europe - troops fight in ranks and the keeping of
said ranks is usually very important in obtaining victory.

In one of my campaigns an foolish yet brave player attempted to attack a
sidhe realm. He had a large army but, due to the thickly forested
terrain, could not deploy or maneuver properly. His troops could not
form proper ranks and so were largely slaughtered by the sidhe warriors
who did not fight in close formation and who were not hindered by the
terrain.

In order to obtain this fairly reasonable conclusions you actually need
to be using a decent system of rules. I personally use modified D.B.M.
(De Bellis Multitudinis) for my battles in Birthright. The war-card
system (and frequent readers of the BR-L will already know my opinion)
is woefully inadequate to the task.

Anyway, all this aside, the Spiderfell is also infested with millions of
highly dangerous spiders - from giant hunting types to very poisonous
tiny types. I assume that any invader would lose many of their troops
even before they could engage the enemy. I also think that, given their
mobility in the terrain compared with the lack of mobility of the
player`s troops, the Spider and his followers could avoid an actual
battle and just let the player`s armies be slowly demoralized, poisoned
and eaten by the spiders.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

If you are using the 3rd Edition, make use of all the nifty things you can
do with goblins. They can have levels, and the leaders really should. They
have base skills in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot, plus their racial
bonus to move silently and the effects of Alertness, so they should be able
to launch devestrating ambushes in the Spiderfell. Prior to a main battle,
they should encounter goblin scouts, using even a level in rogue and plenty
of tumble to get in as many flank attacks- sneak attacks as possible. They
should be supported by goblin cavalry (including the Mounted Combat feat and
a 6 ranks of Ride) with archers in the saddle, perhaps on spiders. During
the main battle, perhaps the spiders are in a more shock capacity - and
remember, nearly all the spiders in the fell are poisonous. For the PC`s
sake, maybe this poison is only enough to paralyze you, so the spiders can
eat you alive after the battle, giving allies the ability to drag them off
to safety (learning a valuable lesson) where they can allow the effects to
wear off.

So, do as Raesene Andu suggests and give the Spiderfell 10 units of
combatants, and make them cunning and capable as I have described.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-05-18 at 10:00, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> Bronto wrote:
> One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me completely unprepared last session by sending a huge army into the Spiderfells with the express purpose of destroying the spider. I need some help adjudicating the situation. Can anyone tell me where I could find rules concerning the maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They obviously don`t follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be nice if this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight of a single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in advance for any help.

The continued existence of the Spider and his goblin minions in the
Spiderfells is hard to explain at first glance. A 2/7 province shouldn`t
really be that much of a problem to an Anuirean force of moderate
strength, but it has been so quite obviously - so there must be
something more - what`s the surprise ?

Firstly, look at the province itself. It`s far larger than a standard
heavy or ancient forest province. It could in fact be reasonable
separated into more than one province. The explanation for the lack of
such division on a standard player`s map is easy - don`t let your
players complain about this - did they map the province ? who explored
and surveyed the political and geographical interior of the Spiderfell ?
It`s an unknown to the outside world and as such suitably unknown to the
players too. The Spider knows though. It`s also described as being full
of pitfalls and deadly traps - I`d consider each province of the
Spiderfell to be fortified from that perspective - sure, it`s not the
standard late medieval concept of high stone walls with a moat etc, but
it`s still a prepared defense (but ONLY usable by the goblin forces -
the Anuireans don`t gain any benefit from occupying a Spiderfell
province!). Lastly, the terrain itself is formidable - preventing the
use of charge by mounted horsemen and providing defensive cover against
missiles, yet the Spiders` goblin spider riders should be allowed to
charge.

Lastly the forces themselves. The Spider is considered virtually
indestructible and his presence should allow the goblin troops
significant advantages in combat. The goblins are a race that is
entirely martial - all males fight. Their ability to raise standard
troops as levies in greater numbers than an Anuirean province and at no
cost should see a difficult situation develop for your players.

So ... the players invade, and then they find that they are running into
traps, ambushes etc and cannot get the goblins to commit to "open"
battle. Secondly, they find that they don`t control the whole of the
Spiderfell with just the one battle group. So they have to split their
forces, build armed camps themselves and suffer guerrilla style attacks
while using up their domain actions (Declare War).

To successfully carve out a province from the Spider`s control (and I
strongly suggest you make the Spiderfell at least three provinces in
size), the players would have to besiege the province, invest it, and
(probably) fortify it as well - this will be quite costly and time
consuming for even a single province. [I wouldn`t set the goblin
fortification level higher than three except for one province (the one
with hills) could be four.]

Don`t forget that raids into other territory could have a political
effect as well, the Spiderfell goblins can raid provinces in Ghoere,
Medoere, Roesone and Diemed - are all these realms involved or in favor
of the Spiderfell invasion ? How happy will they be if the consequences
of such an invasion is depredations into their provinces ?

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-05-18 at 10:29, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> Raesene Andu wrote:
> Having faced this situation before, this is what I`ve done in the past.
>
> Simply assume that every being within the awnsheghlien realm is a member of the awnshegh`s army (especially with the spiderfell). The way I do this is assume that roughly a 1/3 of the population are compatants. Now the Spiderfell is listed as a 0/7 province, but I`m assuming that they are not counting goblins etc as part of the population, so I made the province a 2/7 province with a population of roughly 6000 goblins, huge spiders, and other monsters.
>
> Now assuming a third of them work for the spider, he gets 2000 troops or roughly ten units, plus the spider himself. Of course, the very woods of the spiderfell would be filled with traps to snare the unwary, hidden bogs, quicksand, etc, etc.
>
> If the spider was easy to kill he would have been removed centuries ago, perhaps even back when the empire was around and the Roele`s had a vast and powerful army.

I agree. I grant him between 8-10 troops, of which 3 are elite forces,
plus the leadership of the Spider.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-05-18 at 11:10, John Machin wrote:
> > Bronto wrote:
> > One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me
> > completely unprepared last session by sending a huge army
> > into the Spiderfells with the express purpose of destroying
> > the spider. I need some help adjudicating the situation.
> > Can anyone tell me where I could find rules concerning the
> > maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They obviously don`t
> > follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be nice if
> > this player was a little challenged by the fight. I would
> > also be interested in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight
> > of a single awnsheghlein versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in
> > advance for any help.
>
> Well, depending on what combat resolution system you use this could be
> very very easy. Military organization in BR tends to be quite similar to
> that of late medieval Europe - troops fight in ranks and the keeping of
> said ranks is usually very important in obtaining victory.
>
> In one of my campaigns an foolish yet brave player attempted to attack a
> sidhe realm. He had a large army but, due to the thickly forested
> terrain, could not deploy or maneuver properly. His troops could not
> form proper ranks and so were largely slaughtered by the sidhe warriors
> who did not fight in close formation and who were not hindered by the
> terrain.
>
> In order to obtain this fairly reasonable conclusions you actually need
> to be using a decent system of rules. I personally use modified D.B.M.
> (De Bellis Multitudinis) for my battles in Birthright. The war-card
> system (and frequent readers of the BR-L will already know my opinion)
> is woefully inadequate to the task.
>
> Anyway, all this aside, the Spiderfell is also infested with millions of
> highly dangerous spiders - from giant hunting types to very poisonous
> tiny types. I assume that any invader would lose many of their troops
> even before they could engage the enemy. I also think that, given their
> mobility in the terrain compared with the lack of mobility of the
> player`s troops, the Spider and his followers could avoid an actual
> battle and just let the player`s armies be slowly demoralized, poisoned
> and eaten by the spiders.

Again yes I agree. Although with a little imaginative use the war card
rules are adequate to the task. (Not that DBM isn`t a good system - I`m
an old wargamer from way back, but the cards are not as woeful as
suggested - preferences and prejudices aside.) Allowing a province to be
fortified (defended) by traps etc, will allow the Spider`s forces to
avoid actual battle on any but their own terms - while the fortification
plus the actual terrain hinder the formations of the Anuireans.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>If you are using the 3rd Edition, make use of all the nifty things you can
>do with goblins. They can have levels, and the leaders really should. They
>have base skills in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot, plus their racial
>bonus to move silently and the effects of Alertness, so they should be able
>to launch devestrating ambushes in the Spiderfell. Prior to a main battle,
>they should encounter goblin scouts, using even a level in rogue and plenty
>of tumble to get in as many flank attacks- sneak attacks as possible. They
>should be supported by goblin cavalry (including the Mounted Combat feat and
>a 6 ranks of Ride) with archers in the saddle, perhaps on spiders. During
>the main battle, perhaps the spiders are in a more shock capacity - and
>remember, nearly all the spiders in the fell are poisonous. For the PC`s
>sake, maybe this poison is only enough to paralyze you, so the spiders can
>eat you alive after the battle, giving allies the ability to drag them off
>to safety (learning a valuable lesson) where they can allow the effects to
>wear off.
>
>So, do as Raesene Andu suggests and give the Spiderfell 10 units of
>combatants, and make them cunning and capable as I have described.
>
And let them use the infravision the goblins of Cerilia have - attacking
every night when only your guards are awake and
every other member of your army sleeps or at least wears only part of
his weapons/armour.
bye
Michael

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[Trithemius]

> Again yes I agree. Although with a little imaginative use the
> war card rules are adequate to the task. (Not that DBM isn`t
> a good system - I`m an old wargamer from way back, but the
> cards are not as woeful as suggested - preferences and
> prejudices aside.) Allowing a province to be fortified
> (defended) by traps etc, will allow the Spider`s forces to
> avoid actual battle on any but their own terms - while the
> fortification plus the actual terrain hinder the formations
> of the Anuireans.

Sorry.
Under no circumstances can I permit the fiendish war-cards any
advantage.
As such I disagree.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[geeman]

>Bronto wrote:
> One of my players threw me for a loop and caught me completely
> unprepared last session by sending a huge army into the Spiderfells with
> the express purpose of destroying the spider. I need some help
> adjudicating the situation. Can anyone tell me where I could find rules
> concerning the maintenance of an awnsheghlein domain. They obviously
> don`t follow the rules of a typical regent. It would be nice if this
> player was a little challenged by the fight. I would also be interested
> in rules or ideas on how to handle a fight of a single awnsheghlein
> versus numerous soldiers. Thanks in advance for any help.

In general, I think the awnsheghlien should abide by most of the same rules
for controlling a domain that standard regents do. I haven`t seen much
that would lead to a system of different rules, per se, but you could
probably extrapolate and make a few exceptional rulings here and there in
order to make this attack on the Spiderfell a nice "harvest" for the Spider.

As odd as this one might sound, I`ve experimented with "infiltrators" and
"home guard" units at what is the equivalent of the warcard level
IMC. Basically, if a commander has one of these units then he can choose a
smaller, separate battle from the main conflict with the entire body of an
opponent`s military. The commander of an infiltrator (for invading troops)
or home guard (for defending troops) unit can choose an enemy unit to
attack and that combat is resolved one-on-one before the main battle is
engaged. Regents and/or PCs are normally not taken into account in such
units unless there is an accompanying adventure action (or the DM rules
otherwise.) Infiltrators and home guard units always face each other
first, then the commander with more of such units can pick from the units
of his opponent to face remaining units. That is, if the invader attacks a
province using 3 infiltrator units, but that province is defended by 2 home
guard units, the invader can only choose one of the defender`s units to
engage before the battle, and that only after having committed 2 of his 3
units to engaging the 2 home guard units. If the situation were reversed,
and the invader had 2 infiltrator units while invading a province defended
by 3 home guards, the defender could choose 1 of the invaders units to
engage before the full fledge battle began, in addition to the 2
infiltrator units. Survivors of this conflict can continue on to
participate in the full fledged battle normally (with the damage they`ve
taken still in effect, that is.)

I bring this up in this context, because if one is invading the Spiderfell
then:

1. The Spider should control units made up entirely of spiders, in addition
to units of goblins.

2. Either or both of those units could be considered home guard units.

Other things to consider is that the available source level of the
Spiderfell (7 levels) should really be considered the "population level" of
that province for the purpose of mustering units of spiders. The province
should be able to support the equivalent of a population 7 province`s worth
of spider units, so he could control 6-10 of them (depending on what kind
of maintenance they might require.)

You might also want to think about splitting the Spiderfell up into 2
provinces, Spiderfell West and Spiderfell East, since that "province"
really is large enough to support 2 typical BR provinces. That would, at
least, slow the invaders down a bit, possibly allowing the Spider to fight
a delaying action, or at least increasing his ability to deal with invaders
a bit.

The Spiderfell itself could also spawn a few undead units due to its
haunted and magical nature, at the command of the Spider. Undead units are
pretty tough using... (cough, cough) warcards.

You could also give the Spider the equivalent of a castle or magical
stronghold in the Spiderfell. Really any level of castle in that province
is justified, IMO. After all, the Spider has been there for 1,500
years. He should have had _something_ built in that time. If he laid two
bricks a day during that period he`d have built up over a million bricks by
now.

You might also consider LTs and/or associates of his in that realm. One of
the biggest mistakes made IMO at the BR/domain level is assuming that these
regents will, for some reason, be alone when encountered by PCs. Being a
regent is about being a ruler, and rulers are almost NEVER alone. They are
surrounded by a pack of people who serve the regent and/or are there to vie
for their own personal power by currying favor. Even a crazy regent like
the Spider is going to be surrounded by those willing to risk their safety
in order to reap the benefits of associating themselves with a regent,
particularly one as old and established as the Spider. Many moons ago, I
had the Spider create a werespider (and later there were several) who
obeyed his bidding with the passion of zealots, some of whom even carried a
touch of his bloodline through the same process that transformed them into
lycanthropes. Such creations should be willing and able to attempt
assassinations of PCs, lead "companies" of spiders or goblins, etc.

The background of the werespiders, BTW, was that they were often captured
officers of invading troops who survived battles with rabid goblins and
poisonous hordes of spiders long enough to experience the rigorous
interrogation of the Spider`s henchmen, thus proving they had the toughness
and vigor to live through the tortuous process of becoming a werespider in
which they were repetitiously subjected to the Spider`s corrupted blood and
continuously tortured until they were driven mad and believed themselves
his children.

Hope that`s of some help. Let us know how it turns out, OK?
Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-05-18 at 16:29, John Machin wrote:
> > Again yes I agree. Although with a little imaginative use the
> > war card rules are adequate to the task. (Not that DBM isn`t
> > a good system - I`m an old wargamer from way back, but the
> > cards are not as woeful as suggested - preferences and
> > prejudices aside.) Allowing a province to be fortified
> > (defended) by traps etc, will allow the Spider`s forces to
> > avoid actual battle on any but their own terms - while the
> > fortification plus the actual terrain hinder the formations
> > of the Anuireans.
>
> Sorry.
> Under no circumstances can I permit the fiendish war-cards any
> advantage.
> As such I disagree.

Spoken like a Crusader to a Waratah.



>
> --
> John Machin
> (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
> -----------------------------------
> "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
> Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
>
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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 4:17 AM


> In general, I think the awnsheghlien should abide by most of the same
rules
> for controlling a domain that standard regents do. I

I think they get much better fitting these exceptional realms into the rules
set as they went along. Some of these early attempts to write up these
awnsheghlien produce hapless realms in which there may be plenty of
description of how powerful the realms are, with no backing in the realm
level of play. Perhaps the goblins and spiders of the Spiderfell live in
harmony with the sources, allowing full source capacity like the elves, but
as a 0-level province, its pretty weak.

My take is that some of these early realms were just written up poorly.
Blood enemies doesn`t help much either, at least as far as the Spider is
concerned. It would seem that the official take on the Spider is that he`s
just too tough to personally kill, since he`ll regenerate, and then what?
Come after his usurper? He only has 10 RP and 20 GB, and has no real source
for more of either.

Some alteration is neccesary, or the small army described will be destroyed
by adventuerers alone, and adventerer-rulers with realm spells and other
goodies would have no trouble - as written. I think when the Spiderfell was
written, they hadn`t fully realized the distinct nature of BR, because this
reads like a high level adventure and nothing more.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Peter sez:
> Spoken like a Crusader to a Waratah.

That`d be sport.

I don`t do sport.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Kenneth sez:
> Some alteration is neccesary, or the small army described
> will be destroyed by adventuerers alone, and
> adventerer-rulers with realm spells and other goodies would
> have no trouble - as written. I think when the Spiderfell
> was written, they hadn`t fully realized the distinct nature
> of BR, because this reads like a high level adventure and
> nothing more.

And, why oh why, does some enterprising wizard not just `Ward` the whole
place? There must be some reason that lies outside of the realm rules to
explain the Spiderfell`s power.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Green Knight]

Some suggestions for explaining the Spiderfell. Taken from my Ruins of Empire campaign.

No major surveys have taken place in the SF, so who is to say anyting about population etc.?

1) The Spiderfell is really 3 provinces (N,E, and W).
2) Provinces are rated 2, 2, 3 (even goblins need province levels - a province (0) isn't full of goblins IMO).
3) The Spider controls all holdings within and taxes severely. This generates a decent income.
4) Source level is base 9 to account for the ancient, evil forest. This gives sourve levels of 7,7, and 6
5) The wizard Caine controls the sources and has some kind of twisted deal with the Spider to guard the Fell (or it might be he's just protecting his three most poweful sources).
6) The terrain does present problems for a would-be attacker. Cavalry and large battle formations is not the way to fight in the Fell. Skirmishes mostly, whcih favor the goblins and gnolls of the Fell.
7) Spider attacks cause damage and reduces morale in attacking troops. The morale aspect should not be underestimated - the Fell has a BAD reputation.
8) The Spider gets access te cheap goblin and gnoll troops.
9) He can call levies of decent goblin/gnoll/spider troops.
The ist goes on...

Cheers

[Bronto]

I just thought that I would sit and write about the outcome of the PC regent attacking the Spiderfells with his large army. We are playing a 3E version of Birthright. I wanted a quick and efficient resolution of this, so based on all the great information that I got here from your posts, I developed this plan of resolution...

First, any unit entering the Spiderfells uninvited was subject to the mantraps, pitfalls, poisonous spiders, quicksand and other traps left there by the inhabitants. So each unit was allowed a Reflex Save, DC 10, to survive the traps. I assumed that the average member of a unit would have a Ref Save of +1 and extrapolated that into the units save bonus. Save or die is harsh, but I thought it justified given the dangerous nature of the Spiderfells.

Those units that survived could then face the Spider's minions on the 'field of combat' The Spider's standing levy of 10 units for self protection included:

3 goblin irreg.
2 goblin arch.
2 goblin guards
1 goblin infantry
2 goblin spiderriders

The effects of the forest and fortress terrain cards were also put into effect over the entire battlefield.

If the PC regent decided to retreat with any units, they would again be subject to another save against all the traps when attempting to escape from the Spiderfells. If the Spider's army was defeated, the Spider itself would escape to some unknown place to plot revenge.

At the end of the session that prompted me to post in the first place, The PC regent declared war late, at the end of the session when we were trying to decided if we could stay up any later. This lead to an hour long arguement/discussion about the rules and left things hazy as to whether or not his declaration of war was official or not. The other players recognized that this was big and really deserving of an epic adventure that involved all of the PCs. So they influenced the player to get him to forgo attacking the spider between sessions. Of course, they new I was posting here for advice. At the begining of the next session, the player used his scouts to determine the troop strength of the Spider's Forces in the Spiderfell and decided that he would probably not be successful, opting for a different action.