Arthurian times

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:03 AM


> no such paladin-like characters were present in true
> Arthurian times.

This presumes a "true Arthurian times". The literary desriptions of
Chretien de Troyes or Thomas Mallory don`t reflect their times, but are a
blend of their views on their society and some fantasy elements. I just
finished reading Tristan. The geography alone of Gottfried is interesting.
There is no Wales, but there is a Swales and a Gales, which are both
neighboring England.

Quests for a historical Arthur generally make him an immeditaly post Roman
figure, usually, but there are narrative elements in these stories which
harken back as far as the bronze age. The Green Knight for example is just
a slighty re-worked nature figure (a Ranger model) of a nature spirit from a
more druidical time interacting with a mortal.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:03 AM


> no such paladin-like characters were present in true
> Arthurian times.

This presumes a "true Arthurian times". The literary desriptions of
Chretien de Troyes or Thomas Mallory don`t reflect their times, but are a
blend of their views on their society and some fantasy elements. I just
finished reading Tristan. The geography alone of Gottfried is interesting.
There is no Wales, but there is a Swales and a Gales, which are both
neighboring England.

Quests for a historical Arthur generally make him an immeditaly post Roman
figure, usually, but there are narrative elements in these stories which
harken back as far as the bronze age. The Green Knight for example is just
a slighty re-worked nature figure (a Ranger model) of a nature spirit from a
more druidical time interacting with a mortal.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 22:03, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:03 AM
>
>
> > no such paladin-like characters were present in true
> > Arthurian times.
>
> This presumes a "true Arthurian times". The literary desriptions of
> Chretien de Troyes or Thomas Mallory don`t reflect their times, but are a
> blend of their views on their society and some fantasy elements. I just
> finished reading Tristan. The geography alone of Gottfried is interesting.
> There is no Wales, but there is a Swales and a Gales, which are both
> neighboring England.

By true Arthurian time, I meant historically true and correct.
i.e. c 450 AD (not long after the Romans left as you suggest)

Gottfried - using just the unfinished work ? or one of the (IMO maimed
and finished by someone else who didn`t really understand what even
Gottfried was trying to do) later revisions ?

You know that in some versions of Tristan, Mark is mentioned with Arthur
- and Arthur is subservient to him. Which is grist for the theory that
Arthur was battle-leader but not high-king, i.e. he controlled the
forces of all the Britons at battle but was not so nobly born as to be
an actual king, so that when visiting Mark he has lower status. Thus
indirectly supporting the claim of Cynglas (a prince of Rhos) as the
historical Arthur.

>
> Quests for a historical Arthur generally make him an immeditaly post Roman
> figure, usually, but there are narrative elements in these stories which
> harken back as far as the bronze age. The Green Knight for example is just
> a slighty re-worked nature figure (a Ranger model) of a nature spirit from a
> more druidical time interacting with a mortal.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> kgauck@mchsi.com
>
> ************************************************** **************************
> The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

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