newbie questions

[prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co]

Welcome my friend, to the campaign that brought me back to D&D after 15 years.

Many of your observations could be up to you (as the DM). Make roads, armies
etc. at your leisure- or use the domain design rules at the end of the
rulebook- that's what I do.

Rivers have no effect on trade without Cities of the Sun (CotS) the Khinasi
expansion. If you can't get this, a simplification would be to either treat it
(a river that is) a road, or more accurately, allow cities along it to trade to
"parts unknown" as per the trade route action.

On this board and websites it references you'll find LOTS of different ways and
opinions on how to customize your BR campaign. I won't bore you with my
personal favorites.

I would answer more questions, but I've got to get home for the holidays.
Others will respond before I see the board again in a week.

Again, welcome scion!

Randax

[Geniver]

I don't have enough experience to answer all your questions. I can
answer number 2. I am currently enrolled in a PBEM that just completed
TURN 1, so you can probably still get in.

The web site is
and the DM is "Shawn" .

Turn 2 starts soon, so don't delay!

The answer to question 1 depends on whether you are dealing with PCs or
NPCs. Then again....

Consider that both the province ruler and all existing owners of the
particular holding type can either assist or contest the creation of a
new holding. Consider also, it becomes increasingly difficult to rule up
a holding, the higher it gets.

For example: A young regent may not have the regency to contest
incumbents. An older regent might finance the young regent for a share
of the income (GB or RP).

A existing guild might want to establish sea trade. The only available
seaport is in a level 3 province. What inducement can the guild offer
the province ruler to rule the province from 3 to 4?

Another regent wants to get in on the trade now. What inducement can she
offer the province ruler to a) aid her creation of a guild and trade
route, and b) contest the incumbents creation of the additional trade
route that became available when the province went from 3 to 4?

The answer to both questions could be a vassalage agreement. Could be
some other arrangement. It's all about roleplaying the diplomacy and
intrigue.

You more experienced players can step in here anytime...

On your observations:
1. & 2. I don't know :

[Brian Stoner]

Geniver wrote:

> 3. All trade routes require a guild at both ends (except for one type of
> sea trade). If one regent doesn't control both guilds, then two regents
> will split the income. Only one regent is required to create the route
> insofar as the ACTION is concerned. All that is required of the second
> regent is consent (and the building of any required roads and bridges in
> the other domain).

Actually, the splitting of the income is a house rule and not in the book. The book
is kind of vague on the subject, and some think that the book allows the regent to
bring in too much GBs and RPs. I personally allow the regent to bring in the full
amount, but they must connect the route to a guild or ruler at the other end. The
caravan, the horses/boats, the workers, everything is owned/controlled by the regent
that set up the route. If a regent at the other end wants a route too, that is her
choice. It is common, however, for regents to demand tarrifs and other money for the
right to trade in their lands.

Brian

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, James Donald Lail wrote:

> 1) At the games start it appears that no Roads or Trade Routes exist
whatsover. Is this correct ?

Appears to be, but of course it is up to the DM: if you want to add some
background to your game, you should be encouraged. I personally ruled that
in Anuire there exist the remains of the old Imperial Highway system, but
that much of it had fallen into disuse and disrepair, and needed to be
rebuilt before it was capable of carrying caravans. Some I ruled were
still OK and being used, but others needed work. For example, the highway
between the capitals of Tuornen and Alamie and Mhoried has been decimated
by centuries of warfare, but the one between the capitals of Elinie and
Osoerde may still be fine.

> 2) At the games start it appears that few Domains have any standing armies,
> fortifications of any sort or Palaces. Is this correct ?

I considered ALL domains to have standing armies, and if it wasn't
detailed in the book, I set aside half of the domain's income to pay
"maintenance cost" of their army, and gave that country enough units to
require that amount of maintenance expenditure. You really only need to do
this for countries that are adjacent to your PC's or whom you plan to be
major players in the region. I gave Palaces to the following realms:
Boeruine, Avanil, and Ilien. I gave each country 1 castle, worth half of
the capital province if the regent was a non-fighter, or worth the full
rating of the capital province if the regent was a fighter (I allowed PC's
to split up their "levels" into two castles rather than one if they so
chose. I consider walled cities to be fortfied guild/temple holdings, and
began all cities marked on the map as walled cities (of varying
strengths).

> 3) It is not clear whether Trade Routes which cross domain boundaries can be
> created by just 1 regent since to do so requires actions in other domains.
> Which is it ?

The regent has to physically go to the other domain to set up the
agreements that allow the trade route to run. I represent the "contacts"
and "agents" of the guilder set up to receive the goods in the destination
province as a level 0 guild, which the guilder gets for free by
successfully completing a Trade Route action. This is useful, because it
both represents the "intellegence" that the guilder can gather from his
trade route in the destination, and because 0-level holdings do not count
against the "total number of different holders" that a province can have
based on its size. Also a note: I SELDOM allow trade routes to be set up
this easily. The guilders in the destination province almost ALWAYS want a
cut of the action, and will thus block most trade routes that they do not
control. My guilders thus usually require 2 action rounds to set up a
trade route, one month either to Create Holding in the destination
province, representing the time he spends making friends and payoffs,
setting up his warehouses and agents in the province, or to conduct
Diplomacy with one of the guilders already there, which will usually allow
a guilder to set up a trade route in return for 1 or 2 GB cut of the
profit per domain turn. In this case, the local guilder serves as the
"agent" for the trade goods, and the creating guilder does not have to pay
for the upkeep of another 0-level holding (but doesn't get the
intelligence ability out of it, either).

> 4) River travel seemingly is totally ignored in so far as trade is
> concerned. Is this correct ?

I consider rivers to be just like roads in terms of conducting trade, but
I require guilders using them to buy and maintain the keelboats needed for
the trade route. (Rules available in the "Cities of the Sun" Campaingn
Expansion)

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Uriell]

Hi,
We began a birtrigth campaign 2 weeks ago, all the players
became blooded during the first sessions of play.
I play the wizard of the group, so naturally my first domain action was to create a source.
I thougth that source was a different kind of holding than 'classic' holding, and could not improved in level only decrease. That's to say : build a source in an untamed patch of land and the source is level 7, build it in a capital and th elevel is zero.
But my DM, say that it is an holding like th eothers holding and must begin at level 0, then be upgraded.
I think it's not only wrong but also unfair, seeing how wizard do not gold bar by controling source.
Can you confirm ?

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 06:29, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> Uriell wrote:
> Hi,
> We began a birtrigth campaign 2 weeks ago, all the players
> became blooded during the first sessions of play.
> I play the wizard of the group, so naturally my first domain action was to create a source.
> I thougth that source was a different kind of holding than `classic` holding, and could not improved in level only decrease. That`s to say : build a source in an untamed patch of land and the source is level 7, build it in a capital and th elevel is zero.
> But my DM, say that it is an holding like th eothers holding and must begin at level 0, then be upgraded.
> I think it`s not only wrong but also unfair, seeing how wizard do not gold bar by controling source.
> Can you confirm ?

Yeah, bad luck your DM is correct, you start at level 0. The good news
is though that it`s a hidden holding and cannot be suppressed or
neutralized easily (by decree or occupation). Gold is the bane of the
wizard class, and casting realm spells to generate it is probably not
worth your while. Either adventure and convert your treasure with
Treasury actions, or get yourself a guild holding.

You (your group) has chosen the hard road in building a domain from
scratch. The good news for you is that source holdings and the
relationship between them and the regent are a little different. They`re
a bit more personal - so adventuring will be more beneficial to your
power as a regent than for other regent types.

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[Trithemius]

>
> Uriell wrote:
> Hi,
> We began a birtrigth campaign 2 weeks ago, all the players
> became blooded during the first sessions of play. I play the
> wizard of the group, so naturally my first domain action was
> to create a source. I thougth that source was a different
> kind of holding than `classic` holding, and could not
> improved in level only decrease. That`s to say : build a
> source in an untamed patch of land and the source is level 7,
> build it in a capital and th elevel is zero. But my DM, say
> that it is an holding like th eothers holding and must begin
> at level 0, then be upgraded. I think it`s not only wrong
> but also unfair, seeing how wizard do not gold bar by
> controling source. Can you confirm ?

I find that wizards end up being the most money-conscious of all classes
because of this factor...

Yes, as Peter has said, you need to spend a lot of GB to raise your
source from 0 to 7.
My suggestions as to getting gold depend a lot on your character. If you
are, er, "morally unencumbered" (i.e. evil) then you could: extort via
threat of force, blackmail (gained from scrying), or steal outright. If
you are a nicer sort of person (i.e. good or neutral) then perhaps who
could enter into some kind of deal with your local ruler. Offer him the
protection and the benefits of your magic (gold rush is nice for this,
if your DM allows it) in return for recognition, support in raising the
sources (the province ruler can do this), and a bit of funding. Lastly,
you can use the Alchemy realm spell, but really you should better uses
for your regency at this point in the game.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Lord Eldred]

One clarification on what Lubke said. I was under the impression that occupation can and does effect sources. Don't they? Why or why not?

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 11:39, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

Lord Eldred wrote:
One clarification on what Lubke said. I was under the impression that occupation can and does effect sources. Don`t they? Why or why not?

They don`t. It`s mentioned in the standard rulebook and explained
further in the BoM. Essentially, source holdings are inherently hidden.
When you think about it, of course they are. Temples, law and guilds are
for the most part out in the open - lots of persons must know about them
for them to function. A source need only (and should only) be known to
one person - the wizard regent.

However if the occupying regent knew the exact location of the source
then he could occupy that.


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[Birthright-L]

Not exactly right either. For each turn of occupation, you can either raze
all unfortified law, guild and temple holdings, or you can reduce one source
holding by one level. So source holdings are not exactly immune, they are
just very tough.

/Carl

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-06-27 04.11:

> On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 11:39, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
>
> Lord Eldred wrote:
> One clarification on what Lubke said. I was under the impression that
> occupation can and does effect sources. Don`t they? Why or why not?
>
> They don`t. It`s mentioned in the standard rulebook and explained
> further in the BoM. Essentially, source holdings are inherently hidden.
> When you think about it, of course they are. Temples, law and guilds are
> for the most part out in the open - lots of persons must know about them
> for them to function. A source need only (and should only) be known to
> one person - the wizard regent.
>
> However if the occupying regent knew the exact location of the source
> then he could occupy that.
>
>

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[A_dark]

yes, the idea is that the soldiers spend a month stomping around in the mage's flowers :P

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 18:40, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

Not exactly right either. For each turn of occupation, you can either raze
all unfortified law, guild and temple holdings, or you can reduce one source
holding by one level. So source holdings are not exactly immune, they are
just very tough.

Yes, quite so Carl - well said.


/Carl

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-06-27 04.11:

> On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 11:39, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
>
> Lord Eldred wrote:
> One clarification on what Lubke said. I was under the impression that
> occupation can and does effect sources. Don`t they? Why or why not?
>
> They don`t. It`s mentioned in the standard rulebook and explained
> further in the BoM. Essentially, source holdings are inherently hidden.
> When you think about it, of course they are. Temples, law and guilds are
> for the most part out in the open - lots of persons must know about them
> for them to function. A source need only (and should only) be known to
> one person - the wizard regent.
>
> However if the occupying regent knew the exact location of the source
> then he could occupy that.
>
>

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[Lord Eldred]

Couldn't occupation also help a source owner by reducing the province level thereby giving the source owner the ability to raise their source?

[A_dark]

The maximum source potential of the land is not restored automatically when the population drops, cos the buildings and all that stuff would still be there. I think the rule is that the source raises by one for every year, in a province where it has the room to grow. This room to grow would be following the rules regarding source levels in populated lands.

Eg if the land is an ancient forest it has a source potential maximum of nine, when there are no humans in the province. If N is the province level and M is the current source maximum level, then M+N<=9 If the province is occupied by elves, then obviously M+N<=18, since the sources do not drop when the province is occupied by elves :)

I hope I was clear enough