Half-elves: an unlikely abomination

[Peter Lubke]

Now while this is a post just to get the message board rolling - it is more than halfway serious.

Half-elves have a separate race -- why is that? Do they form a unique genetic code? -- unlikely. Are they so unusual as to require special rules? - not so in fact their rules are very similar to that of full elves. Are they so common as to merit generalization? -- also not true, they are supposed to be very rare. And in BR, why do elf-human hybrids get a look-in when the Brecht-Rjurik, or Vos-Khinasi don't? In fact, forget BR, I can't see any good justification for even having a separate race for any half-breeds.

Any single child will not be half and half -- they will ALWAYS favour one or the other parent, if only by a small margin. So much for nature, (even that of a fantastic bent) - on to nurture. A child's upbringing is far more likely to influence their adult behaviour than their genetics -- even a fully human child brought up in a elven culture would take on many elven traits. In BR, while a child with one elf parent is far less likely to be brought up in a human society than in an elven society, an isolated human parent (I'm considering single parent children here - a human elf pairing would almost certainly be found in an elven community) could be brought up as almost entirely human. (Such a child would have almost no way of learning any of the elven abilities).

Of course the role-playing stigma of being a half-breed will still exist for such, regardless of them being half-elf or Brecht/Anuirean, but any half-breed should for all practical terms be considered as wholly one or the other race (there is sufficient variation within races to account for the differences).

:)


comments? discussion?

Hey Arjan - how do you attach polls?

[Lord Eldred]

Why half-elf? Why isn't it called half-human? And if there is going to be half-elf, why is there not half-dwarf? Are humans able to reproduce with elves but not dwarves? And while we are on the subject, what happens in the rare occasion that a dwarf and elf get it on? What do you call it then?

[Bloodaxe]

Well a Brecht/Anuirean would still be a full human, they're just bred from two different cultures... each with different traits of course, but still human...

A Half-Elf is bred from two completely different races... And if you combined the genetic codes of each, they end up as a different race, not fully belonging too either race, and that alone is reason enough for them too be listed as a seperate race...

As for the name, Half-Elf sounds better then Half-Human. I doubt a Dwarf could mate with an elf... maybe a human... but you'd probably just call it a Half Dwarf... Human seems to be treated as the standard race in most respects.

[blitzmacher]

Since elves in Cerilia can live forever, unless killed of course, how long do half-elves live?

[Lord Eldred]

Half of forever ;)

[Abbess Allessandra]

Has anyone found when playing with someone who is half-elf that the half they
were not raised around is completely forgotten or dismissed?

[Lord Eldred]

Well, in fact I have noticed that at least once. We have two half-elves in our campaign. One does not favor either side and the other pretended he was just an elf. It didn't surprise me however because he was also multiclass fighter magicuser and he pretended the fighter side of him never existed. However, why am I telling you all of this? My Lady Allessandra you already know!

[Chioran]

There are those of use who are above race. For one reason or another. As a human/elf I have experienced prejudice from both humans and elves so my feelings toward both are relatively apathetic. I do have a sense of duty toward my queen of Arenwe, but as a member of the council of the UPofH I also have a duty to uphold the laws and provide for the common defence. I guess I don't think of myself as human or elven. I think of myself only as Chioran, one small individual who has the privilege and responsibilty of being a regent in the UPofH. Having been a target of prejudice throughout my life I shun no one based on race. As an elven-human I do not consider myself an abomination, merely an unfortunate outcome of a fleeting love.

[Lord Eldred]

If only all people on Earth thought like you, the planet would be a better place.

Chioran, you are the one I was refering to when I said you don't seem to favor either. It is Councilor now Lord Xerath that I was indicating acted as if he did not have any human in him.

[Mike Cod]

When I first read Birthright I was pleased to see that the Sidhelien had a poor view of humans, after all it was the humans who pushed the elves back into the forests and allowed the goblins to reconquer parts of Cerilia.
I see the Sidhelien similar to the Melnibone of Michael Moorcocks' Stormbringer stories. A proud and ancient race that ruled the continents for 10,000yrs and lost power to the upstart human kingdoms. The Melnibonean's despise their enemies and see themselves above other races (except for Elric of course who brought about the destuction of his people).
Xenophobic and dangerous.
Sound familiar?

I prefer to call them Sidhelien as the word elf brings thoughts of farie dust and giddyness and does not do the Cerilian Sidhelien justice.

[Lord Eldred]

As if giddyness and farie dust are bad things... and the political correctness creeps into the world of D & D. I tend to think of love for nature and magic when I think of elves but to each its own.

[Mike Cod]

I don't see it as political correctness, I see it like.....you say Toe-mae-toe, I say Toma-tow;)
Only if the word "Sidhelien" wasn't so hard to spell.
:)

[Lord Eldred]

Spell...I am not even sure how to say it :P

[Leland]

Orginally posted by Mike Cod

I don't see it as political correctness, I see it like.....you say Toe-mae-toe, I say Toma-tow;)
Only if the word "Sidhelien" wasn't so hard to spell.
:)


Just say "Sidhe" then. It sounds like "she" and to tell you the truth I believe "Sidhe" is Gaelic for elf or fairy.

Leland

[Lord Eldred]

:P :) ;) Thanks for that bit of information Leland!

[Mike Cod]

I guess we can't get away from the Fairie stuff eh!
Heh heh. that's funny. Sidhe.
:P

[Lawgiver]

Half-elves thus far are all but nonexistent in my campaign. I've taken the elven culture closer to drow. They are not purely as evil, but their hatrec for humans runs extremely deep. The prejudice has made the idea of half-breeds a mute point. Both races would much rather kill the other then mate.

Though Taurheivel has slowly moved towards the brink of civil war. The regent and a few of his advisors have tried to make peace with the humans of Talinie. Only time will tell what befalls their ancient culture...

[Mike Cod]

Hey LG, I like your style. I agree with your view of the Sidhelien of Cerilia. What do they have to be happy about? Their lands were overrun by shortlived shortsighted squatters.
Throw a large festival, no thanks, I gotta get me some revenge, Gheallie Sidhe!!!
heh heh,

[Lord Eldred]

comes war! Race wars are not pleasant. I would like to believe there are humans and elves that see the disaster that comes from it and are working to bring the two sides together.

As far as no mating between the two sides that hate each other. There are examples from history that shows it really happens. Why then could it not happen in the Birthright world?

[Lawgiver]

The reason humans and elves don't breed in my campagin:

Except for rare cases elves hate humans above all other races (even goblins). Not for the typical reason that humans destroy Mother Nature but out of sheer racial hatred. The history of elves is different based on two points of view. From the elven point of view, they were created by a divine being who saw the beauty of the earth in its creation, and created beings to ensure that its beauty was preserved. They were created from the four basic elements of fire, earth, water and air. The elves were created from the substances of the earth to protect the earth.
From the human perspective (which is actually the truth, though the elves will not admit it...), elves were created by Azrai/Satan in an alternate form (2 Cor. 11:14 "But I am not surprised! Even Azrai/Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light."). When Azrai/Satan was cast out of heaven and fell to earth he saw the great wonder of Gods creation and his perfect creation man. Though he succeeded in tempting man to eat the forbidden fruit he did not succeed in destroying mankind. At some point in time Azrai/Satan who could not create "life" (beings with souls) created elves from the elements of fire, earth, water, and air. He constantly subjected these "beings" to propaganda and lies to grow with in them hatred and prejudice against humans that would develop into war. Most humans view elves as "demonic" in nature, ironically elves view humans in much the same way. There are a few "good"; elves that have managed to somehow overcome their heritage of hate. Though they are exceedingly rare. Fhileraene, the Prince of Tuarhievel is one of the few. He has done much to convince many of his subjects, though he has slowly brought the realm to the brink of civil war on the issue. Most are hated by their fellow elves and are viewed as ultimate traitors who should be punished with death.

Basically its like trying to breed horses and cows... it results in, forgive the pun... hows.


Another interest elven trait (based on an idea of the late Bearcat): When an elf is slain their deaths are actually quite dramatic. When they are "killed" their bodies begin to breakdown into their original components. Their body becomes a pillar of dirt which turns to flames as the dirt burns is changes to water and finally the water rapidly evaporates leaving only their equipment behind as evidence of their existence. The entire process happens in a matter of seconds.


Sorry for the hogged space... but you asked.

[Mike Cod]

When one people invade another peoples territory, show no respect for their customs or beliefs (or lack thereof;) there will no doubt be conflict. It's not as simple as humans saying, OK, lets be friends again, while there standing on sidhelien soil. I don't think anyone can forgive a slight such as that and there will remain animosity.

Interesting outlook regarding sidhelien and their creation, Lawgiver.

[Lawgiver]

Thanks Mike. I try to think outside the box. While I may take heat for this and some even accuse me of blasphemy...
I have introduced Christianity into my campaign and have rewritten the temples and polytheistic view of the culture. I turned it into a sort of Reformation like period so that the church still has masses of power, but there is constant intrigue and other controversy.

By rewriting the rules and having Anuirians accept God as their createor I had to explain the origin of elves. This was my best idea. I didn't think it was half bad... I have changed several of the other races and misc. stuff in my campaign. I have a bad habit of never excepting things for the way they are. I likte to adapt them to my own style.

If you interested the site is http://fan_of_enoch.tripod.com -- "My Birthright Campagin" section. Be forewarned my view of magic is by far not the norm. But its my campaign so don't bash it. :P

[Lord Eldred]

Even with your interpretation there would still be half-elves. Even when the White slave owners had black slaves that they viewed as less than human, there were half-breeds.

[Lawgiver]

Its not 'genetically' possible.

[Lord Eldred]

On what ground? Are you suggesting then that they are more than just a different race...they are a different species of intelligent life?

[Lawgiver]

In my campaign yes. In others... I have no idea.

In my campaign Man was created by God from the dust of the earth (See Genesis 2 ;)). Elves were created by Azrai from the four elements (water, wind, fire, earth). Thus they are two very different creatures.

[blitzmacher]

What about the other races?

[Lawgiver]

See my website Lawgiver's Chambers (http://fan_of_enoch.tripod.com). Under the section: 'My Birthright Campaign' -> 'The Races and Monsters'

I haven't fully finished the document (halfings in particular), but it contains the basic thrust.

[Lord Eldred]

So you are saying that the dust of the Earth can't mate with Earth that has the three other elements?

[blitzmacher]

Maybe humans are made from the elements as well.
dust, some sort of % of water, we give off heat, and I myself am guilty of putting out a lot of hot air.

[Lawgiver]

That's like asking: Can the cows of the field can't mate with the horses, sheep, and goats of the field? ;)

There's more to genetics than that!

[blitzmacher]

Horses have been known to mate with donkeys. As for genetics I know nothing. Genetisists say they can clone sheep, it worries me that someone knows sheep well enough to tell if it is a natural sheep or a cloned one.

[Lord Eldred]

I think the argument is equal to the horses mate with donkeys argument.

[Lawgiver]

Your model breaks down on the next generation. Mules (the horse/donkey product) are generally sterile. But the comparison is far closer to a horse cow. They both have four legs, tails, eat grass, etc. But You don't see many 'corse' or 'how' farmers...

Just because both elves and humans have two arms, legs, eyes, ears, etc. doesn't mean they are the same. Humans and chimps have many similar features, but I haven't seen many men lining up to procreate with a chimp to see if they can have half-chimps... Similarity in features doesn't guarantee compatibility in breeding.

[blitzmacher]

and that is why it is a fantasy game:p

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

Half-chimps...hahahaha.....thats funny....good one lawman.
;)

[Lord Eldred]

Blitzmacher, my point exactly and that is why I am going to allow the half-chimp race to exist in my campaign world :)

[Lord Eldred]

On a more serious note, I think Lawgiver is comparing apples to oranges instead of Macintosh apples to Delicious apples. Elves and humans are different races not different species. To say that they can't mate is to say that chinese and anglo-saxons can not mate. It is not like a cow trying to get it on with a horse, it is like a chinese man trying to get it on with an English woman.

[Mithrandir]

How many chinese man do you know who live forevr and have pointed ears?! Immortality is little bit of a bigger difference then skin color and culture. I'm not saying half-elves can't happen, frankly the problem has never come up in my campaigns, but elves are an entirely different species from humans.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Lawgiver forgive me but,why would you want to bring real-world religion into a fantasy game???I assume you made it an idealistic church,the church as it should be,not the way it is kind of deal right??Or did you bring in all of the Christian church's more,shall we say more annoying qualities?Such as its xenophobia and prejudices??I am not against Christianity,I am against organized religion,in all its forms.Your relationship with God,Allah,Budda,the Green Man,or the spirits in the rocks and trees is your business.

I'll give you an example of what I am talking about.One day I was off work and was reading before I went over to a friend's place.I had the TV on just for background noise.The 700 Club came on,and they started talking about Pokemon.The guy stated that in itself,good christaians have nothing to fear for their children,except when they went to the Pokemon website.Since WotC produces the cards,their is a link to D&D,which according to this guy,was bad.He did state that one must be careful,as Pokemon can teach your children of the Occult,as it shows that "one calls upon an outside power to help one overcome the obstacles in his life."(actual words).Later this same guy started praying to God to heal someone.To me this is hypocrisy,and if their is anything I am prejudiced against,it is a hypocrite.It is exaples like this why I am against the organized Christain Church.

You didn't translate stuff like that over did you???

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Mithrandir

How many chinese man do you know who live forevr and have pointed ears?! Immortality is little bit of a bigger difference then skin color and culture. I'm not saying half-elves can't happen, frankly the problem has never come up in my campaigns, but elves are an entirely different species from humans.

I have heard that some chinese men have lived well into their 100s :)

I am confused by your argumentation. If elves are an entirely different species from humans than how do half-elves happen? Also why are they listed under the races of Cerilia rather than the species of Cerilia. Is your argument that Orcs, Dwarves and Halflings are all different species?

Are elves really immortal or do they just have a tremendously longer life span?

[Mithrandir]

Yes, elves are an entirely different species, as are all the races listed in the PHB, they're just to different from each other, the only charecteristic they share is that they are Humanoid. Half Elves might still be possible because Biological logic takes a back seat to folk lore in my game, and faery blood is a popular theme in many stories. And immortal is the wrong word perhaps, but they do have the potential to live forever, if you don't jab them with any pointy metal objects in vital areas, or otherwise arange a demise.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Mithrandir
How many chinese man do you know who live forevr and have pointed ears?! Immortality is little bit of a bigger difference then skin color and culture. I'm not saying half-elves can't happen, frankly the problem has never come up in my campaigns, but elves are an entirely different species from humans.

A voice of reason!

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Is your argument that Orcs, Dwarves and Halflings are all different species?

Are elves really immortal or do they just have a tremendously longer life span?
In my world:
Dwarves and Halfings are actually a seperate race/culture of Humans in my world. Dwarves were humans who dwelt underground and "evolved" into dwarves. Halflings are an outgrowth of selective breeding. Birds of a feather flock together. Repeated breeding of "midgets" or whatever teh politically correct term is resulted in the "race" of halflings.

While humans and dwarves are not fond of the fact, the goblin-kind also share human ancestry. No one knows for sure how they reached their current state or where they came from. Theories range from goblins being the descendants of Cain (Adam and Eve’s Son) or Esau. Some say they are humans who sold their soul to Azrai/Satan for power or they were altered at the Battle of Mount Diesmaar. Still others believe that the first goblins were humans who were altered by mages centuries ago.

Elves are quasi-immortal. They will live indefinately unless they are slain.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Riegan Swordwraith
Lawgiver forgive me but,why would you want to bring real-world religion into a fantasy game???I assume you made it an idealistic church,the church as it should be,not the way it is kind of deal right??Or did you bring in all of the Christian church's more,shall we say more annoying qualities?Such as its xenophobia and prejudices??I am not against Christianity,I am against organized religion,in all its forms.Your relationship with God,Allah,Budda,the Green Man,or the spirits in the rocks and trees is your business.

(pokemon bit)
You didn't translate stuff like that over did you???

I brought the real world religion into the game because I prefer the flavor of the religions with the Birthright setting. The Khinasi realms large reflect the Muslim beleifs. The Brecht are the strong Catholics of Spanish type culture. The Rjurik are celtic in nature. The Vosgaard are also a bit celtic, but are largely aethistic. The Maestians have an Egyptian type religion.

Additionally, my own personal convictions prevent me from advocating some of the theology espoused in the D&D system for my PCs. Since all but one of my players are Christians this whole system fits our style quite well. But again to each his own.

You opposition to all organized religion is as you say "your business". With regard to Christianity there are many denominations and sects that have crushed the entire purpose of Christian with their organized religion. For the most part I am strongly opposed to "trandition" and the frankly non-biblical ceremonies that some Christians practice. But enough of that... its not related to Birthright.

the converted view on magic:
I did adopt the common theory (regardless of religion) in many cultures that "magic" is evil and many fear it greatly. The church in itself has had inquisitions for "witchcraft", in which people are burned at the stake (which is in line with European history).

[Lord Eldred]

the converted view on magic:
I did adopt the common theory (regardless of religion) in many cultures that "magic" is evil and many fear it greatly. The church in itself has had inquisitions for "witchcraft", in which people are burned at the stake (which is in line with European history).[/quote]


The magic is evil unless of course it is being casted by the clerics. Another hypocrisy of religion????

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


In my world:
Dwarves and Halfings are actually a seperate race/culture of Humans in my world. Dwarves were humans who dwelt underground and "evolved" into dwarves. Halflings are an outgrowth of selective breeding. Birds of a feather flock together. Repeated breeding of "midgets" or whatever teh politically correct term is resulted in the "race" of halflings.

While humans and dwarves are not fond of the fact, the goblin-kind also share human ancestry. No one knows for sure how they reached their current state or where they came from. Theories range from goblins being the descendants of Cain (Adam and Eve’s Son) or Esau. Some say they are humans who sold their soul to Azrai/Satan for power or they were altered at the Battle of Mount Diesmaar. Still others believe that the first goblins were humans who were altered by mages centuries ago.

Elves are quasi-immortal. They will live indefinately unless they are slain.

Thus according to this theory halflings, dwarfs, humans and goblin kind can mate and have children because they are of the same species different race and elves can't because they are quasi-immortal and are different species?

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Mithrandir
How many chinese man do you know who live forevr and have pointed ears?! Immortality is little bit of a bigger difference then skin color and culture. I'm not saying half-elves can't happen, frankly the problem has never come up in my campaigns, but elves are an entirely different species from humans.

A voice of reason!

How can you argue this is a voice of reason when in the same breath he indicates that half-elves can happen but elves are a different species than humans? Or perhaps half-elves are like mules and can't reproduce?

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Mithrandir

Yes, elves are an entirely different species, as are all the races listed in the PHB, they're just to different from each other, the only charecteristic they share is that they are Humanoid. Half Elves might still be possible because Biological logic takes a back seat to folk lore in my game, and faery blood is a popular theme in many stories. And immortal is the wrong word perhaps, but they do have the potential to live forever, if you don't jab them with any pointy metal objects in vital areas, or otherwise arange a demise.

Perhaps I should have read this post before I made fun of Lawgiver for calling you the voice of reason. At least you have a decent explanation of how you allow half-elves to exist even though elves are a different species.

With that said, I have to respectfully disagree that they are all different species. If they were meant to be different species why were they listed as the species of cerilia rather than the races of cerilia?

[Mithrandir]

Simple, a poor choice of nomenclature, after all, doesn't races sound more medievil then species. But i'm not sure it really matters, if you want Half-chimps, Goblin-dwarfs and Dwarf-elves more power to ya. I just want to be the first player to play a Elf-chimp (for purly role-playing purposes of course).;)

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
The magic is evil unless of course it is being casted by the clerics. Another hypocrisy of religion????

Its not hypocrisy. The sources of "magic" are from two very different sources. One is from a "good" divine source and the other is thought to be from an "evil/demonic" source. They really aren't both magic per se, but they are both supernatural. Even with the standard D&D rules Clerical and Wizardly spells are not both "magic". One is magic and the other is a divine blessing or imbuement of power from a deity.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Mithrandir
I just want to be the first player to play a Elf-chimp (for purly role-playing purposes of course).;)
Well according to Lord Eldred's philosophy on the races you may find a place in one of his campaigns. :P

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
With that said, I have to respectfully disagree that they are all different species. If they were meant to be different species why were they listed as the species of cerilia rather than the races of cerilia?

Maybe because the designers wanted to maintain the same nomenclature presented in the umpteen other D&D modules... :P

Besides the whole discussion was based on a personal choice in campaign styles not the boxed set or core rules.
As usual: ''To each his own!''

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Mithrandir

Simple, a poor choice of nomenclature, after all, doesn't races sound more medievil then species. But i'm not sure it really matters, if you want Half-chimps, Goblin-dwarfs and Dwarf-elves more power to ya. I just want to be the first player to play a Elf-chimp (for purly role-playing purposes of course).;)

Roll it up and join my campaign!!!

One member of my group actually got to play a pig!

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
With that said, I have to respectfully disagree that they are all different species. If they were meant to be different species why were they listed as the species of cerilia rather than the races of cerilia?

Maybe because the designers wanted to maintain the same nomenclature presented in the umpteen other D&D modules... :P

Besides the whole discussion was based on a personal choice in campaign styles not the boxed set or core rules.
As usual: ''To each his own!''


You heard Lawgiver, this discussion is pointless. Stop talking everyone. Rules be damned. Authors intent...whatever... The GMs rule the world!!!!!

[Chioran]

Boar, Eldred. Wild Boar.

Pig Sheesh!


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Roll it up and join my campaign!!!

One member of my group actually got to play a pig!

[Lord Shaene]

dont call our dm a bore chiorin, hes not boring at all

[Chioran]

That's it Shaene...
handing him a copy of Ye Olde Hooked on Phonics

Come back when you've finished.

[Lord Eldred]

Pig...Boar...Bore...what is the difference ;)

[Chioran]

The difference is..
Shaene is a pig, I was a boar and you are the bore.:P

[Abbess Allessandra]

Orginally posted by Chioran

The difference is..
Shaene is a pig, I was a boar and you are the bore.:P

I thought I was the bore?

[Sellenus]

well said Traveler...

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Abbess Allessandra


Orginally posted by Chioran

The difference is..
Shaene is a pig, I was a boar and you are the bore.:P

I thought I was the bore?

No that would be Chioran. He plays the bore.