Concerns about third edition conversion

[Traederic]

Hello everyone,

I have recently taken the 3.08 PDF and began dm'ing a third edition D&D campaign in Cerilia. My players want to play regents and do the whole domain running thing but they like the 3rd edition rules and do not want to relearn new races, new cleric domains, class changes, etc. I have found this sentiment in my own and several other gaming groups in my area that I have contact with.

So...after going through the 3rd edition conversion in detail, I have found that it does not convert Birhtright to third edition but rather 3rd edition to Birthright. (No offense to the people who did it, it is an excellent resource and I could not have done what I am doing without it.)

I am now reconverting it and making changes such as keeping the races matching the abilities in the third edition PHB. Removing the magician class entirely. Matching the gods up so that players can just change the name but temples, modules, and all things deity related can be converted easily. For example, Pelor = Avani, Heironeous = Haelyn, Kord = Cuireacen, Obad-Hai = Erik, etc.

I am trying to make Birthright a setting within the 3rd edition rules without changing much about the third edition rules. Maybe making them more consistent could even improve the popularity of the Birthright line we all love so much. I have no wish to take away from the uniqueness of the world but I am striving for consistency.

I welcome feedback and discussion on this and am also hoping the people doing the Third edition conversion can shed some light on how much it will be like the 3.08 or if any of my opinions have already been brought up or considered by others?

Thank you to everyone who contributes to the Birthright on-line community, you have my deepest respect for all your work and I hope you take my post as trying to add to it and not be divisive in any way.

[Denakhan]

Hiya.

Well, even though I dont' play 3e with Birthright (hell, I don't even use any AD&D/D&D version for that matter), I will give you a list of what makes Birthright, "Birthright" for me:

--Differences in Human races (ability adjustments, background, government styles, etc).

--Dwarves loose some standard AD&D stuff, and gain one or two new things (like half damage from Blunt weapons, for example)

--Elves differ from standard AD&D elves; they are truely immortal, don't have infravision, don't need to sleep, etc.

--Halflings are way different than standard AD&D.

--The Shadow World. 'nuff said.

--Deities are "former humans". they weren't always god/desses. Oh, and there's only a 'few' of them.

--Magic is different; two types of magic casters...Wizards and Magicians. Blooded or being an Elf determines your capability to master magic. Three orders of magic; Lesser, True and Realm.

--Awnshelien. 'nuff said.

--The majority of people in Cerilia are "0-level"; never gain xp, can't become a "class", etc. Much closer to 1e AD&D (and much better that 2e or 3e outlook for commoners, IMO).

--the whole Domain Ruling slant of the game; lot's of political intregue, skirmishes, traveling, etc.


So, when I read your post, all I could think was..."Why don't you just use the Domain idea and incorporate it into your own world?". Dropping the racial abilities that make the races different in Cerilia is one of the things that makes it different. Same with changing the gods. I'm guessing you are going to freely use PrestigeClasses too....something most definitly, IMHO, not "Birthright-ish".

My suggestion would be to take the parts of Birthright you like (Domain thing) and work it into your own camapaign world (homebrew, Greyhawk, whatever). It seems like a lot less trouble to do that then to change some of the core (again, IMHO) things that make Birthright, Birthright.

In any case, good luck and have fun! :)

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Originally posted by Traederic

I have recently taken the 3.08 PDF and began dm'ing a third edition D&D campaign in Cerilia. My players want to play regents and do the whole domain running thing but they like the 3rd edition rules and do not want to relearn new races, new cleric domains, class changes, etc. I have found this sentiment in my own and several other gaming groups in my area that I have contact with.

So...after going through the 3rd edition conversion in detail, I have found that it does not convert Birhtright to third edition but rather 3rd edition to Birthright.

This seems a little off. Birthright is a setting, for which all the official products were produced using the 2e system. The coversion of Birthright to 3e requires the changing of 2e semantics to 3e semantics. The actual setting of Birthright is not changing, merely its system. The setting did require the introduction of a few new rules to the 2e system, which is what it will do to the 3e system.

It appears that you want to add this additonal rules set to the implied setting of 3e (greyhawk). Do so, and I wish you luck. However, I'm not really sure what your concerns are about the conversion.

[Lord Rahvin]

>> So...after going through the 3rd edition conversion in detail,
>> I have found that it does not convert Birhtright to third
>> edition but rather 3rd edition to Birthright.

>
> This seems a little off. Birthright is a setting, for which
> all the official products were produced using the 2e system.
> The coversion of Birthright to 3e requires the changing of 2e
> semantics to 3e semantics. The actual setting of Birthright
> is not changing, merely its system. The setting did require
> the introduction of a few new rules to the 2e system, which
> is what it will do to the 3e system.
>
> It appears that you want to add this additonal rules set
> to the implied setting of 3e (greyhawk). Do so, and I wish
> you luck. However, I`m not really sure what your concerns
> are about the conversion.


If all you`re interested in is the setting, tone, and story, then you could
use Birthright`s flavor with any rule sets, which is basically what the
original Birthright 2e did with AD&D. Most people fall into this category
and are seeking a ruleset that they like to combine with a setting that they
like, and for these people, a conversion to Birthright 3e would be apt. In
most cases this involves changing as little of the core rules as necessary,
but also usually means being kind of liberal in your definition of
"necessary".

For many people, including myself, the rules themselves carry a lot of
weight and importance to the flavor of the setting, implications toward
character creations, and types of games to be run. In addition, the BR
flavor, tone, and game types have changed dramatically over years of reading
the books, playing in game sessions, brainstorming, and communicating with
the BR community. For such people, BR is not simply a setting to be
transported into any ruleset, but is a good basis alone on which to
establish a ruleset that can most appropriately catch the flavor and
gametype, as well as portray the (customized) Birthright setting. The
problem here, of course, is that this is a much more subjective and creative
approach, meaning everyone who falls into this category is probably looking
for something just a bit different than what anyone else is looking for.

I myself fall into the second category, and have been for some time trying
to identify exactly what "the Birthright flavor" means to me and how best to
portray them in a new scratch-built set of rules. Since I still intent for
it to use the 3e combat system and certain elements of character generation
are going to be similiar, it will still be "d20" in a sense, but definitely
not D&D.

Hence, the terms Birthright d20 and Birthright 3e get tossed around a lot,
sometimes interchangeably, sometimes not. The original poster was looking
for Birthright 3e rather than a Birthright d20 philosophy that I would
advocate. Most conversions, of course, fall somewhere in the middle of
these two.

It seems to me that the original poster was simply seeking a conversion
manual less inventive, and more following with the original materials in 3e.
I think a more proper way to way to express this kind of project would be as
a FAQ rather than as a conversion manual, as FAQs tend to be lighter, to the
point, less inventive, and by their very nature are easier to change once
the core rulebooks get revised. Hence, instead of creating a monster stat
for an orog, a Birthright 3e FAQ might simply read: "Q. What are the stats
for 3e orogs. A. Orogs are orcs, advanced with two hit dice." Now, I don`t
know how orogs should be represented -- that`s not my point. My point is
that for some people I believe this kind of quick-n-dirty conversion might
be what some people are looking for to start their games rather than a long,
inventive, conversion manual that I would prefer.

Incidently, if someone more loyal to the 3e system than me wants to create
such a FAQ I would be glad to help.

-Lord Rahvin

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[Ariadne]

You converted Cuiraécen with Kord of Greyhawk?? Brrrr..., that's truly awful!! Cuiraécen has NOTHING in common with him (apart from his alignment)! If you try a conversion of Cuiraécen with a existing converted deity, I would say: Try Thor!

[Green Knight]

Kord is SUCH a cry-baby. Thor is just mean.

From Thule with Love ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Milos Rasic
Sent: 18. desember 2002 00:43
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: Concerns about third edition conversion [33#751]

> You converted Cuiraécen with Kord of Greyhawk?? Brrrr...,
> that`s truly awful!! Cuiraécen has NOTHING in common with
> him (apart from his alignment)! If you try a conversion of
> Cuiraécen with a existing converted deity, I would say: Try Thor!
>


Perun!!

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[Lord Grave]

> You converted Cuiraécen with Kord of Greyhawk?? Brrrr...,
> that`s truly awful!! Cuiraécen has NOTHING in common with
> him (apart from his alignment)! If you try a conversion of
> Cuiraécen with a existing converted deity, I would say: Try Thor!
>


Perun!!

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Kord is SUCH a cry-baby. Thor is just mean.
>

You don`t know Perun!! He destroys evil with thunder so that good may be
created in its place. Isn`t that similar to Cuiraecen?

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[irdeggman]

Kord is the "we're going to pump, you up" god.([_]

[Keovar]

I think the original poster is really confusing the differences between what is really part of the system and what is setting material.

Changing the way the core mechanics work, like rolling against a DC, or changing the hit point rules, that's changing the system.

Changing the races or adjusting the classes to fit the setting, that's normally done to some degree in every setting... it's just that the default ones in the PHB were based on Greyhawk.

Changing the fact that any race is supposed to be capable of being any class, that's kinda borderline. I'm in favor of keeping it open, but just making some serious social problems for those too far out of their race's norms... social impact actually matters alot in BR, so this isn't as weak of a guideline as it may sound.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Lord Grave


> Kord is SUCH a cry-baby. Thor is just mean.

You don`t know Perun!! He destroys evil with thunder so that good may be
created in its place. Isn`t that similar to Cuiraecen?
Who is Perun? IMO Cuiraécen can't be converted at all!! :P

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

I was under the impression that the purpose of creating a d20 or 3e birthright was to update the rules and setting. In the original manuals, you could fairly easily extract the special rules of birthright without having to wade through much setting material. An official Birthright conversion would most likely share this trait.

I had no qualms with the poster's idea of how he wanted to play the game, I was just stating the importance of both the setting and the rules being updated. I apologize if it came out the wrong way.

[Ariadne]

I see. OK, one thing I can tell: It would be good to see Cuiraécen as a greater deity... ;)