Help with the Gorgon Please

[Magian]

Hi,

I request some other's inputs on this matter. In my campaign I am widdling out my version of the Gorgon.

Here is what I have so far, The Gorgon is not a wizard of 16th level because his domain power is only 90 from the RP generated section from the books.

My questions are, if I chose to have the Gorgon become a wizard would this be plausible? (What I mean is would he allow himself to be taught by another? Is he capable of casting spells with those big ass claws? Does this unbalance the campaign if he does this?) Also with a 100+ bloodline considering if he becomes a wizard his domain power would go sky high meaning I would have to make a bloodline strength for him, so what would you suggest this be? So far I have calculated it to be between 101-265, what do you think? (those are min and max figures so don't get upset)

[Temujin]

My Gorgon is a not a mage, I prefer the Blood Enemies version of Raesene. The Gorgon is frightening enough as a level 25 fighter with all those big powers and items without needing to add him enough levels as a mage to make him on par with Aelies. Besides, there's enough fighter/mage awnsheghs on the continent already, with the Manslayer, the Raven(my personal favorite), the Serpent... As far as the bloodline goes, I used to rate him at 120.

[Lawgiver]

Mr. Magian,

I can't believe you would even consider giving the Gorgon magic-user abilities. Do your players really need a more challenging opponent? The Gorgon can pretty much romp and stomp across any battle field slaying whomever he wishes.

If you must give the Gorgon access to magical power, give him a lieutenant. But please don't ruin the Gorgon by having him rely on magic.

[warlord_nabron]

I go with the Gorgon exactly as Rich Baker wrote him; Fighter 25/Mage 16, and would say stripping him of his wizard class is what's not plausible.

In my campaign, he spends a LOT of his regency maintaining a massive network of ley lines -- 75 RP maintenance/Domain Turn for 36 hook-ups and crossing 39 borders. Since his vassals have very low bloodlines (a 2 for Markazor's regent, a 5 for Mur-Kilad's, and a 17 for Kiergard's), he can't make up the difference by tribute even if he squeezes them for every RP their realms generate (not that he wouldn't hit them up for every single RP he could).

As far as his bloodline score goes, we know that he has 2 Minor and 6 Great abilities while and the best "spread" he could have as a normal mortal would be 1 Minor, 2 Major, and 4 Great abilities. I used this as a pretext (back when I prepared the Gorgon for play) to add two more bloodline score "brackets," one at 115 (which improved his single Major to Great) and another at 155 (which gave him another Great). I currently have his score at 160-something, and keep his RP accumulation near 200. He's only rarely spent RP to increase his bloodline strength -- it's just so much easier to run someone like Razzik Fangrabber through the heart for another point of bloodline strength than it is to save up the requisite number of RP.

I expanded his guild holdings, placed trade routes, set his taxes at severe (no need to fear rebellions, so why not?), and empty his vassals' treasuries into his own maintain his standing army. His 200+ GB treasury can muster a lot of anything he wants if he needs to, and he has a few fortresses located around his domain, particularly Sideath. I figure he might be paranoid enough to have a back-up set of ley lines connecting to key points, but haven't bothered to map them (or start charging for their maintenance).

[Magian]

Sorry for backtracking a bit but I am sure others may do this. Originally I thought the Gorgon was a W16 also, but then someone brought to my attention that why then does he not just conquer Anuire at will? He could simply teleport in and take all the regents bloodlines, and who would stop him?

This could be countered by the lack of teleport spell or teleport wards or dangers of shadow world trapping a teleporter.

Then I looked at the domain power written in the Ruins of Empire book and it showed he generates only 90 RP per turn. I did his hidden holdings in Markazor and Mur-Kilad and this would enable him to be close to 90 domain power meaning his bloodline supercedes his total holdings and provinces. If he was a wizard then the book would show him generating 100+ RP by default not 90. This is what made up my mind after about 6 months of looking at this argument.

I really appreciate your judgement and gauging methods of how you came up with the Gorgon's bloodline str and I will look at this myself now since I hadn't thought of looking at it that way before. Mainly because I allow regents to instead of increasing a bloodling str by spending +1 rp to their strength to get a roll chance at gaining a new blood ability when they are at true strength so this mislead me from this way of looking at it. Thanks

[warlord_nabron]

Well, why don't the Serpent, the Raven, and the Magian do the same thing (teleport around Cerilia slaying regents). I mean, if you reason it would be that easy for the Gorgon to be able to do this, why isn't it that easy for rest of them (since there is no perception that they are not wizards)?

[Magian]

I am just saying this argument was brought to me, not that I thought of it of my own.

[Lawgiver]

Because even though most of them are evil they are "noble".

Plus people who have enemies that stoop this low or behave like this have sucky campaigns in whihc the PCs are worms compared to these demi-god like beings and the fun of the game is lost and so are the number of players....

The person who came up with the idea had a great idea (if you are evil are sedistic) but they are missing the point of the game.

[Lord Eldred]

None of them can be everywhere at once. They may be able to bring havoc across Cerilia but they could never be able to control all of it. Also while one was away from their domain, another would sweep in and take it over!

[Sivar Windlass]

Does he have one? Aciles (is that the name for it?) heal! There is a hint in Ruins of Empire that the Gorgon cant leave his realm. Dont remember where, and I dont want to bother to search for it now!

But there is one thing that bothers me, why didnt he become a god? Because he wanted to best his brothers. So he was still on earth, and grew his realm. But the gods did not want this huge power running loose so the bound him to the land! He cant leave his realm. It infuriates him! BUt there is a plan, he can move in his vassal realms so he must make all of Anurie a vassal realms. So if he expands his realm then he can walk freely!

What do ya think about this idea?

[Lawgiver]

Sivar Windlass: Whats the difference in that and him simply conquering as he pleases?

By the way its, Achilles.

[Sivar Windlass]

Well the diference is that he cant teleport and kill the anoying adventurer! And it is a twist that I find interesting!

Thanks for the corection! I hope that no one was ofended by it! My first languge is not english, if no one has guessed

[morgramen]

Personally, I think that the Gorgon was ONCE a wizard, but as his transformation into Rock Butt progressed, he lost the ability to manipulate the magic into workable effets (ala the reference to 'those big ass claws'). Following his acension into awnsheighlienhood, he could easyily have learned wizardry while he brooded his defeat and humiliation. As his blood transformation advanced, he slowly became less and less able to manipulate the needed intracicies of spell casting. Thus, he has the kowledge of wizardry, (but not the physical skill now) and can closely monitor/direct his regent-vassals.

This also fits as a nice compromise for the conflicting stats for Rock BUtt. They are both right, and both wrong. It all depends which time period you want to play in. If Rock Butt is still mostly Prince Raesaene, then he can use spells, if he's mostly the Gorgon, then spell casting is out, and he has to use proxies.

IMHO, it is wiser for him to aquire secret proxies and spys just as in Iron Throne (or was it War???). The regents of Anuire keep an eye out for Gorgon activity, but if they should discover that their trusted court mage is secretly working for the Gorgon... well, old Rock Butt would certainyl have a horn up on them. ;)

[Yak]

For teleporting I always say no to it. For the most simple reason as the last line of the spell description in the 2nd ED PHB, "Areas of strong physical or magical energies may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible." Think about it for a moment. The regents are getting god-like energies channeled into them. The land is alive with such magic. Cerilia as a whole is overflowing with strong energies! This makes teleporting impossible or truely hazardous. No one teleports because you could die. Not a good thing for an age old awnsheighlein when they are dominant where they are. Better to wait and grow in power. Time is on their side.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I just thought of something on the "big-ass claws" thing.If memory serves,Nagas in 2nd Ed. were spellcasters.They used spells that normally have somatic components.Nagas have no arms.How did they do this??They basically researched spells to the point where the spell no longer needs somatic components.

Just a thought.

[Magian]

Not that I know anything about nagas or FGR setting *hack* but I would say that they are like dragons in their spells and casting.

[Lawgiver]

You could chalk it up to his 90% magic resistence. :P

[blitzmacher]

I personally feel the gorgon is still a powerful wizard. I think he has had plenty of time to learn how to manipulate his spell casting to get around his loss of finger dexterity.

[Lawgiver]

Perhaps the Gorgon could have tried to cast a spell or two in the past and due to them backfiring or having negative results he deemed it to dangerous to try again...

[Temujin]

...is only a partial bonus. A clever spellcaster who knows he's about to attack a creature with magic resistance will find a way arround...
You don't get magic resistance check against everything after all; not against summoned monsters, not against indirect attack(i.e: a crumbling wall due to a lightning bolt, a rock to mud spell affecting the ground below you), etc...
Of course, many people play the wizard as a dumb-wanna-be-fireball-thrower. Its obvious that such people will have a hard time against impressive creatures like the Gorgon.

[Mason]

Are we all completely missing the point of the Birthright rules?! When Rich Baker developed them he was using the core fundamental rules from 2nd Edition AD&D, those rules specifically state that they are guidelines, not gospel.

It doesn't matter whether The Gorgon has a lack of dexterity in his claws or even in that narly stone butt of his (grin), at the end of the day it's all up to us.

I do agree with the Gorgon too powerful side of the argument though. When you take a close look at the Awnsheghlein in the game, it's as if Mr Baker tacked them on at the end of his work week.

If you put one of the established Awnsheghlein in the hands of a PC, they would go sick. Just imagine if you had a spitefull DM on your hands (oh wait, that's me).

Way too much game imbalance.

[A_dark]

I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).

The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage. Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.

The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the writer's part. If you ask me, the Gorgon's Bloodline is close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose, the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped, the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25 BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he would not have reached at least 500 score.

Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns in his castle's dungeon, if memory serves, there is a circular corridor with a naga)

[Lord Grave]

Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
he is Fighter only.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of
> brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:10 PM
> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: Re: [12#85]
>
>
> A_dark wrote:
> I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a
> powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or
> less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others
> are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the
> Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
>
> The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder
> about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this
> discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if
> he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage.
> Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
>
> The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the
> writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is
> close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with
> tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose,
> the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped,
> the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the
> Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on
> 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after
> looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be
> on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so
> bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25
> BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of
> him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has
> slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the
> various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he
> has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I
> sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou ld not have
> reached at least 500 score.
>
> Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There
> are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal
> components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the
> normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I
> think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the
> Stonecrowns in his castle`s dungeon, if memory serves, there
> is a circular corridor with a naga)
>
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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 21:35, Milos Rasic wrote:

Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
he is Fighter only.


Yeah, I`m all for keeping him a straight warrior type too.

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[geeman]

At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.

Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
description.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 09:38, Gary wrote:

At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.

Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
description.

You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?

That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention
that Jesus was the son of God.

If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
having any magely powers whatsoever.

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[geeman]

At 10:20 AM 6/13/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
> his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed
> system of
> sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
> since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
> description.
>
>You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
>justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
>completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?
>
>That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention that
>Jesus was the son of God.
>
>If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him having
>any magely powers whatsoever.

Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.) The other
side of the debate, of course, is that if the Gorgon has no wizard levels,
but per BE he somehow and for some reason developed a massive system of
source holdings, because all his source holdings remain in his BE
description. I think an accidental omission of his wizard levels is a more
likely explanation than that they intentionally changed the Gorgon, but
forgot to change any other aspect of the Gorgon`s domain. If it had been
an intentional and thought out change, surely they would have also taken
away his 70+ levels of source holdings, or is that part of the BE version
of Apocrypha?

Actually, what I think what might _really_ have happened was when Slade
wrote up BE he had somewhere in the back of his mind the idea that the
Gorgon-Raven-Magian "triumvirate of evil" were going to each represent an
aspect of the evil awnsheghlien with the Gorgon representing the physical
violence aspect, the Magian the mystical evil and the Raven bridging the
two, per the characterization stuff under the Raven`s description, but the
thinking never really went much beyond that paragraph, even at the editing
stage, so in the rush to go to press the Gorgon`s wizard levels weren`t
included.

Is it a good idea to omit the Gorgon`s wizard levels? Maybe. Maybe
not. Depends on how you want to play him--and the rest of the triumvirate
of evil, for that matter. One could go with either version of the
character--I personally prefer the original--but this contention that BE
"clearly states the Gorgon is a fighter only" is incorrect. Nowhere in BE
does it say anything like that, and it`s just as plausible (IMO more
plausible) that it is an error rather than an intentional change.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:24, Gary wrote:



Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)

Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
scale of any such omission is about equal.

The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!

IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
than uncontrolled.

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[geeman]

> Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard
levels
> and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
> something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
> published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy
because it
> is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
>
> Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
> the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
> be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
> is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
> scale of any such omission is about equal.

The Bible analogy is too extreme for what can simply be explained as an
error in the text. There are gobs of mistakes in the BR materials, the
fallibility of the authors and editors isn`t such a big deal that it merits
comparison to the "son of God" IMO. I`m not a particularly religous person,
in fact I`m rather agnostic, but leaping straight to an analogy that
references an issue that billions of people consider the core of their
theology to make a point about a supplemental rulebook in a RPG campaign
setting? Too much.

> The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
> everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
> What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
> without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
> Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!

The Tuarhieval SB also has a regent who controls source holdings without
having wizard levels, and there`s temple of Rournil in Khinasi that does as
well. The rules regarding source holdings, however, state that one cannot
create source holdings without wizard levels. That doesn`t mean the Gorgon
has to have wizard levels. He could have taken those holdings from a wizard
or wizards after they were created, and then he spent several hundred RP and
GB ruling them up. Another possibility is that he recently stolen them from
a very powerful wizard in his own realm. Or they could simply have made an
error in transcribing the character information.

If you`re going with a non-wizard version of the Gorgon, then I think the
best explanation is that he recently took his holdings from one or two very
powerful wizards in his domain. Otherwise one has to come up with a
plausible reason why he would dedicate so much time and effort to developing
one of the largest source domains in Cerilia. I still think it`s easier to
go with the wizard version of G rather than add additional background
material and history to him, but YMMV.

> IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
> remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
> wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
> forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
> than uncontrolled.

There are very few references to the Gorgon`s wizardly powers before BE
either, but there was no debate that he had them up until that text came
out. If they had really meant to change the character they would only have
to had to say so in the intro or something.

Gary

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[Green Knight]

>You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
>justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
>completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?

Stranger things have happened. Still, even the cardsheet from the BR box
doesn`t mention any spells, the Wizard 16 entry under Class/Levels is
all I have ever found to support him being a mage.

>If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
>having any magely powers whatsoever.

Except a massive number of source holdings. The inconsistency is
enormous - the BE doesn`t mention magely powers at all, but gives an
all-fighter character the most extensive network of sources in Cerilia.
BAAAAD workmanship is one way of describing it.

There are many inconsistencies, and it boils down to this: Would YOU
like the Gorgon to be a mage in your campaign, or not?

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello Milos!
There is a reason. With the Birthright Boxed Set came several cards,
e.g. for Rhuobhe Manslayer, the Spider and THE GORGON. There he is
described as Fighter 25, Wizard 16 in 2 E D&D.
bye
Michael
***************

Milos Rasic wrote:

>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
>>[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of
>>brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG
>>Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:10 PM
>>To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>>Subject: Re: [12#85]
>>
>>
>>A_dark wrote:
>> I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a
>>powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or
>>less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others
>>are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the
>>Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
>>
>>The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder
>>about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this
>>discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if
>>he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage.
>>Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
>>
>>The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the
>>writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is
>>close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with
>>tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose,
>>the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped,
>>the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the
>>Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on
>>0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after
>>looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be
>>on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so
>>bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25
>>BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of
>>him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has
>>slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the
>>various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he
>>has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I
>>sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou ld not have
>>reached at least 500 score.
>>
>>Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There
>>are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal
>>components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the
>>normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I
>>think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the
>>Stonecrowns in his castle`s dungeon, if memory serves, there
>>is a circular corridor with a naga)
>>
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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>A_dark wrote:
>...
>The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose, the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped, the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25 BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou
> ld not have reached at least 500 score.
>
You remember wrong. He is NOT having children only to slay them. When he
was yet unaware of his long life great bloodability he planned to have
heirs to continue his line (see Warlord of the Stonecrowns). He tried to
make the POWERFUL, not because he wished to slay them... Remember: He
fed the Warlock personally with flesh.Only when he noticed that he did
not age he saw that heirs which will never inherit something because the
Gorgon lives forever will become dangerous. Even more so than far
enemys..THEN he decided to slay them all.
bye
Michael

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[A_dark]

So what? Instead of starting the harvesting of bloodlines in 100HC, he started it at 500HC? He still had 1000 years and the fact that he harvests bloodlines to increase his own is undisputable.

Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.

[Lord Grave]

> At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>
> >Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says
> >that he is Fighter only.
>
> Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It
> merely omits his wizard levels, but still gives him one of
> the most developed system of sources in Cerilia....
> Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error since it
> doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
> description.
>

He would be TOOOO powerful as a mage. Maybe he owns the sources and from
time to time finds puppet wizards, like Callador long ago, to use them
for him. Or maybe he can cast realm spells, but his stony form prevents
him from casting conventional spells which require more dexterity?

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[Lord Grave]

> Is it a good idea to omit the Gorgon`s wizard levels? Maybe.
> Maybe not. Depends on how you want to play him--and the
> rest of the triumvirate of evil, for that matter. One could
> go with either version of the character--I personally prefer
> the original--but this contention that BE "clearly states the
> Gorgon is a fighter only" is incorrect. Nowhere in BE does
> it say anything like that, and it`s just as plausible (IMO more
> plausible) that it is an error rather than an intentional change.


BE doesn`t describe classes and levels of Awnsheghlien, for that matter.
It only describes their saving throws. For the Gorgon, it says: saves as
F25. For me, this is good enough reason to consider him Fighter-only.

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[geeman]

At 10:13 PM 6/13/2002 +0200, A_dark wrote:

>Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.

At a certain point increasing one`s bloodline becomes less important. When
one can spend enough RP to assure the success of all your actions in a
domain turn with RP left over then it becomes less important to have a
greater bloodline strength score. Of course, one could still get into a
bidding war with other regents and want to accumulate RP in order to assure
your success even when opposed, but someone like the Gorgon who`s been
around for 1,500 years would likely have built up a massive RP pool anyway.

So the question is, why would someone want a bloodline strength score over
100? What happens when BSS reaches 100?

A bloodline in the triple digits might be required to advance into
godhood. A high BSS could grant additional powers beyond those listed in
the Rulebook. If RP are useful for something other than assuring the
success of domain actions, "paying" troops and increasing one`s own
bloodline strength then it makes sense to continue accumulating them beyond
what one could use in a domain turn.

One interesting possibility is that 100 is the maximum BSS. After that the
character enters a sort of bloodline strength version of the "Epic Level"
of play. The Gorgon is already an epic level character, so it makes sense
that he might want to accumulate a higher bloodline score if it gave him
additional epic level traits. That would make some sense of the "100+"
entry in his description, and might mesh well with the direction the 3e
system appears to be going.

Gary

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[Lord Grave]

>
> > Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his
> > wizard
> levels
> > and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be
> the first time
> > something was left out, nor even the most glaring
> omission in the BR
> > published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy
> because it
> > is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
> >
> > Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is
> very arguably
> > the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake
> > can be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The
> > Gorgon is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I
> > think the scale of any such omission is about equal.
>
> The Bible analogy is too extreme for what can simply be
> explained as an error in the text. There are gobs of
> mistakes in the BR materials, the fallibility of the authors
> and editors isn`t such a big deal that it merits comparison
> to the "son of God" IMO. I`m not a particularly religous
> person, in fact I`m rather agnostic, but leaping straight to
> an analogy that references an issue that billions of people
> consider the core of their theology to make a point about a
> supplemental rulebook in a RPG campaign setting? Too much.

Let`s not start a religious argument. It is enough to say that
son-of-god-problem is the most important in life for some, while RPG is
much more important to others.

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Hello Milos!
> There is a reason. With the Birthright Boxed Set came several
> cards, e.g. for Rhuobhe Manslayer, the Spider and THE GORGON.
> There he is described as Fighter 25, Wizard 16 in 2 E D&D. bye Michael

As F25/W16 Dual-Class in AD&D, he would be even weakened. With these
levels in D&D, multiclass, he would be invincible, he would be a level
41 character...not bad :->

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[Lord Grave]

> >Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.
>
> At a certain point increasing one`s bloodline becomes less
> important. When one can spend enough RP to assure the
> success of all your actions in a domain turn with RP left
> over then it becomes less important to have a greater
> bloodline strength score. Of course, one could still get
> into a bidding war with other regents and want to accumulate
> RP in order to assure your success even when opposed, but
> someone like the Gorgon who`s been around for 1,500 years
> would likely have built up a massive RP pool anyway.

That is the way a player thinks, a sane one for that matter. The Gorgon
just wants more and more Blood, and more and more powers. Is there a
limit to number of Blood Abilities?

> A bloodline in the triple digits might be required to advance
> into godhood. A high BSS could grant additional powers
> beyond those listed in the Rulebook. If RP are useful for
> something other than assuring the success of domain actions,
> "paying" troops and increasing one`s own bloodline strength
> then it makes sense to continue accumulating them beyond what
> one could use in a domain turn.

In fact, the Gorgon is a demi-god. He has a church which worships him,
and he grants spells as all other dieties.


> One interesting possibility is that 100 is the maximum BSS.
> After that the character enters a sort of bloodline strength
> version of the "Epic Level" of play. The Gorgon is already
> an epic level character, so it makes sense that he might want
> to accumulate a higher bloodline score if it gave him
> additional epic level traits. That would make some sense of
> the "100+" entry in his description, and might mesh well with
> the direction the 3e system appears to be going.
>

Again, there is the problem of "Gorgon wanting" and "player wanting".
The player thinks only of what is useful for his domain, but wouldn`t
you want more if you were really your character?

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[geeman]

At 10:47 PM 6/13/2002 +0200, Milos Rasic wrote:

>BE doesn`t describe classes and levels of Awnsheghlien, for that
>matter. It only describes their saving throws. For the Gorgon, it says:
>saves as F25. For me, this is good enough reason to consider him Fighter-only.

Huh.... That`s interesting. If you take a look at the 2e saving throw
tables, a F25`s saves are all equal to or superior to that have a W16, so
including the W16 under the "saves as" description would be redundant. Of
course, it still doesn`t explain the lack of a spell list--though a spell
list is also lacking on the cardsheet that came with the boxed set--but
does make that omission sensible.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

Milos Rasic <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET> wrote at 02-06-13 23.06:

> As F25/W16 Dual-Class in AD&D, he would be even weakened. With these
> levels in D&D, multiclass, he would be invincible, he would be a level
> 41 character...not bad :->
>

According to the conversion manual, a levl 25/16 character ends up as a
level 29 character (add one-third of the lower class level). If you want to
keep his spellcasting intact, that means he "only" has 13 levels as a
fighter.

This gives him a BAB of +21, which is only four worse than what he would
have had as a 25 th level fighter. It also gives him a LOT of spells. All in
all, it seems reasonable.

/Carl

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[Birthright-L]

<< According to the conversion manual, a levl 25/16 character ends up as a
level 29 character (add one-third of the lower class level).
>>

You mean 30th-level. 16 / 3 = 5 + 1/3.

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[huehar]

In our campaign (which runs since a few years in realtime) the Gorgon absored so many blood at Deismaar that he could be also a god but choosed not to be and stayed in Cerilia (written also in Blood Enemies). By us he is not only an awnshegh but a demipower (with divine ranks), too. We do not know the reason (yet) why he does not raid Cerilia but we know that he is after Haelyn (he wants to finish him for once and for all). We never confronted him (yet) but I am afraid that we will be so powerful in the near future that he will be busy with us.
My character (high prefect of IHH) has a millenia-plan and I am working on stabilizing states, interstate relations and bring the Great Peace for the whole Cerilia (for races, religions, states, etc.). Paralel I am working on saving so many awnsheghs I can (of course those who deserve redemption). All steps I take are very-very careful only just because of the Gorgon. I sneak on tiptoe...

[Kell]

I don't see a problem with him being a 16th level wizard.

Since his fighter level is 25 (and came first no doubt) then he can't cast spells armored as a 16th level wizard. I would argue that because he is perpetually armored, he can't cast standard spells at all.

Casting Realm Spells is not limited by wearing armor (anywhere I have found at least) so he is able to cast Realm Spells as a 16th level wizard.

Now, what he is able to do if he uses some sort of Polymorph Self magic item would be a different story all together...

In any game I have ever run with the Gorgon, he is not one to use spells; but he knows them...maybe even all of them. He has had centuries to study though...so why isn't he higher level than 16th even? Well, because you gain no XP when you use your former class abilities...and the Black Prince loves his sword. The fact he has managed to become a 16th level Wizard is, for that reason, pretty impressive.

I have played him in the manner that he IS a powerful wizard. He uses his magic only sparingly and with focused intent though. He chained a dragon with his magic after all is my reasoning...not with a sword. He doesn't want to burn down his enemies though, he wants to cull their blood out of addiction to the feeling he gets from it. Aging bloodlines like fine wine through the ages...

Could he cast a Wall of Force, Fireball, or even a Death Spell? Sure he can; but to him magic is a tool of less importance compared to his raw physical might. He considers himself the mightiest warrior in the world (and is right!); and would not wish to sully his renowned and epic reputation by the casting of spells in battle.

He works his magic into his fortress. He casts spells to glean information. He chains dragons to his will with his spells. He shatters magical wards and protections against him with is magical might and He harnesses the land to his will with his magic...but for battle, he wouldn't lower himself to the ranks of the common spellcaster and forsake his martial prowess.

In effect, the way I play him, he IS an honorable warrior...it may be the last thing that ties him to any sort of mortality in fact; and to him, using magic in battle is a cowards weapon. He just won't do it.