Alternate Character Generation (sort of off topic)

[Birthright-L]

I`ve been thinking of writing new character generation rules for a
Birthright campaign, that don`t yet deal with Bloodlines (I`m still not sure
how I want to represent them -- I think the way the original bloodline rules
worked was kind of stupid.)

Basically, this is an attempt to try to take the focus off magical items in
D&D, while keeping the same relative power-base (so that I can still use
those higher CR monsters and awnsheighlein) on the characters, rather than
their gear. Also, some rules are going to be kind of changed to represent
my campaign style.

Anyway, I just wanted to toss out my draft agenda/ideas out to see if anyone
here has any comments or additions that they`d like to suggest.

Two notes: * I am primarily concerned with non-spellcasting classes
* This is not an attempt to convert Birthright to 3E,
so much as to start my own version of a Birthright d20.


- Damage resistance will be based on a rarity chart similiar to the chart
found in the "4 Colors To Fantasy" superhero d20 product. So that instead
of a +2 weapon, Damage Reduction can be negated with either a +2 weapon or
something in the "Rare" category, such as "fresh, blessed springwater".
Knowledge checks, divination spells, and trial-and-error are all appropriate
methods for finding these weaknesses.

- Characters will no longer have magic rings, cloaks, boots, swords,
sheaths, socks, toe-rings, etc. At most they will have about 4 or 5 items
in the entire party at the campaigns magical peak. Most of these will be
organized like a template (so that possessing one of these items might be
like an ECL+1, allowing me to guilt-free raise the challenge rating and
calculate experience as if they were one level higher.

- Backgrounds can be chosen based on the Wheel of Time backgrounds, although
I will probably beaf them up a little to make them worthy of an ECL+1. Such
backgrounds will not represent coming from particular cultures, but rather
membership in particular organizations (that I just don`t have the time,
energy, or inclination to make prestige classes for). )(They are effectively
single-level classes, but have no requirements.)

- All characters will start the game at 3rd level, and anything that has an
ECL cost also grants hit dice.

- Classes must be rewritten along similiar themes to the PHB and to other
d20 products such as Star Wars and Wheel of Time. All classes will have a
Reputation mechanic, and a Defense bonus. Fighters will be powered up by
getting a high defense bonus, Armor Compatibility (allowing defense to stack
with armor) broken up into light, medium, and heavy increments, and bonuses
to Wound points. Other classes (including the final Spellcasting Class)
will be balanced (as best I can) to this fighter in the design process.
I`ll put further notes on this process later.

- Characters will get bonus Wound points, like the Vitality/Wound system
but all other dynamics of that system will not be used. Characters will
still be fatigued when their wound points get hit, but critical hits will
not effect Wound points and damage reduction always applies to either your
hitpoints or your wound points as normal.

- Every character can choose two skills as background skills. They are
always class skills for that character. Feats can be chosen to acquire
other background skills. (Adaptive Learning)

- There is no max skill rank based on level. However, every 5th "rank" of
skill, the rank cost goes up by a point. So getting 5 ranks in a skill
costs 6 skill points, 10 ranks costs 16 skill points, etc. (I haven`t
decided if Skill Emphasis will grant a bonus, additional ranks, or just an
amount of skill points automatically spent on that skill.)

- Characters will make use of the Action Point system from Star Wars and
d20 Modern. Basically, everytime they level up, characters will gain a
number of Action Points based on their level. Action Points can be
(permanently) spent to gain a "+1d6" to any task resolution (d20) roll. New
feats and class abilities (and possibly blood abilities) will allow Action
Points to be spent in different ways.
[Most of my characters dislike the idea of a non-replenishable resource,
however, so I might change it so that characters gain one Action Point
whenever they level up or take a particular feat (or class ability), and
those Action Points are re-usable each campaign day.]

- I applaud Star Wars and Wheel of Time`s effort to assign "Challenge
Ratings" to skill checks, but I don`t think they did a good job. I`m going
to look into this further and try to break down the percentage chances of
succeeding at various DCs, the amount of resources it consumes (in terms of
skill points and feats), and the likelihood of having any particular skill
in order to come up with a more structured and logical method of giving PCs
experience based on successful skill checks. (I may adopt the "complex
skill check" idea that so many other game systems use, which will give me
more freedom with giving out XP, but may interfere with the whole "Take 10"
"Take 20" mechanics. We`ll see.)

Those are my ideas so far regarding ways to place the emphasis of character
power back on the characters and less on the character`s gear.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Eosin the Red]

While I think some of the stuff you want to include is good - it looks like
a smorgasbord approach rather than a comprehensive one. I do not think some
of these things will fly together well at all.

Check out my website (http://www.mabinogin.com/Woundpoints.htm) for various
mechanics using WoT/SW rules inplace of D&D. The Armor DR needs to come down
some. Their are a chunk of PrCs & some classes as well. (some good some
bad - I take submissions, what can I say?).

You have too many very large and sweeping changes to take as one post. Why
not try breaking them into cohesive chunks?

Couple of notes: Blood lines might work as Templates - they should not be a
Stat, unless it is made useful/penalizes all characters.

> - Backgrounds can be chosen based on the Wheel of Time backgrounds,
although
> I will probably beaf them up a little to make them worthy of an ECL+1.
Such
> backgrounds will not represent coming from particular cultures, but rather
> membership in particular organizations (that I just don`t have the time,
> energy, or inclination to make prestige classes for). )(They are
effectively
> single-level classes, but have no requirements.)

This sounds like a squirm to give players lots of skill points without
experience points. "You belong to the elite warriors of the waste. Add +5 to
your wilderness lore.....what?....No you do not go up a level but your
effective level is +1"

> - Classes must be rewritten along similiar themes to the PHB and to other
> d20 products such as Star Wars and Wheel of Time. All classes will have a
> Reputation mechanic, and a Defense bonus. Fighters will be powered up by
> getting a high defense bonus, Armor Compatibility (allowing defense to
stack
> with armor) broken up into light, medium, and heavy increments, and
bonuses
> to Wound points. Other classes (including the final Spellcasting Class)
> will be balanced (as best I can) to this fighter in the design process.
> I`ll put further notes on this process later.

I am not sure if Defense has a place in BR. It works well in settings that
use little to no armor. That is not BR. It could be done but why? If you
wanted to use Damage Reduction for armor instead of AC, it might be worth
the effort.

> - Characters will get bonus Wound points, like the Vitality/Wound system
> but all other dynamics of that system will not be used. Characters will
> still be fatigued when their wound points get hit, but critical hits will
> not effect Wound points and damage reduction always applies to either your
> hitpoints or your wound points as normal.

I do not get what you are saying here? They get the extra 10-18 Hit Points
but don`t have any of the negative effects? Take a look at the WP/HP rules I
directed you to earlier. It prevents instant kills - still mimics serious
damage and such. There are others versions on the net that attempt to port
WP/VP into fantasy - each takes a slightly different spin. I chose to leave
all of the weapons alone rather than converting them all to my system but
you might want to try something a little different.

> - Every character can choose two skills as background skills. They are
> always class skills for that character. Feats can be chosen to acquire
> other background skills. (Adaptive Learning)

I think everyone should have the option to select a feat for `adaptative
learning` but if you use the character creation system for WoT (mentioned
above) that kinda negates the need to do multiple free skill bonuses.


Maybe more on the rest but I would have to look at it better.

Randy Madden
Eosin the Red

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

> While I think some of the stuff you want to include is good - it looks like
> a smorgasbord approach rather than a comprehensive one.

Well, it was organized that way on purpose.
I`m only starting to work now on the specifics; what I posted before was
just brainstorming (whatever you think of, write it down whether its good or
not) and requesting other people`s brainstorm ideas.


>I do not think some
> of these things will fly together well at all.

I`ll let you know when I`ve reorganized it. In the meantime, I`d appreciate
whatever other ideas you might have.


> Check out my website (http://www.mabinogin.com/Woundpoints.htm) for various
> mechanics using WoT/SW rules inplace of D&D. The Armor DR needs to come down
> some. Their are a chunk of PrCs & some classes as well. (some good some
> bad - I take submissions, what can I say?).

I`ll take a look at it.
Thanks.


> You have too many very large and sweeping changes to take as one post. Why
> not try breaking them into cohesive chunks?

Eventually I will, but as I said, this was just a brainstorm. The first
phase in any project is when I write down everything that I want to change
or every objective that I want met in the changes. (Normally I do the
latter, but when I present it to other people I present the former.)

Also, many people tend to accept changes to a system better if they are
presented with all the changes together. When asked an opinion on specific
changes, they usuaally want some framework in which to think about it, and
more often than not, they use their own campaigns as a base with weird
results.


> Couple of notes: Blood lines might work as Templates - they should not be a
> Stat, unless it is made useful/penalizes all characters.

I`m not really concerned with bloodlines at the moment. But thanks.


>> - Backgrounds can be chosen based on the Wheel of Time backgrounds,
> although
>> I will probably beaf them up a little to make them worthy of an ECL+1.
> Such
>> backgrounds will not represent coming from particular cultures, but rather
>> membership in particular organizations (that I just don`t have the time,
>> energy, or inclination to make prestige classes for). )(They are
> effectively
>> single-level classes, but have no requirements.)
>
> This sounds like a squirm to give players lots of skill points without
> experience points. "You belong to the elite warriors of the waste. Add +5 to
> your wilderness lore.....what?....No you do not go up a level but your
> effective level is +1"

Okay, I`m not sure if what you said above necessarily follows from what I
said, so let`s try to clarify this.

To belong to the "elite warriors of the waste", a character would take the
Wasted Warrior background instead of levelling up in his class, because it
has an ECL of +1. Alternatively, if everyone, during character generation
decides to take such a background, then they`ll effectively be a party one
level higher for purposes of determining challenge rating.

A quick example:
So, instead of taking your 2nd level in Fighter, for example, you could
become a 1st level Wasted Warrior Fighter. It would get you one bonus hit
die (all things that have an ECL cost will grant hit dice, because I can`t
find anything that compensates for not having hit dice), 4 skills that will
always be class skills, a +4 bonus to one of those skills, a bonus feat from
a very specific list, and probably one bonus package to balance it all out
(either attack bonus, save bonuses, skill points, Spell Points, or Action
Points).

So, instead of levelling up, we can become a Wasted Warrior and recieve the
following benefits:

- +1d8 hit dice
- stealth, wilderness lore, perception, and ride are all class skills
- a +4 bonus to all wilderness lore skill checks
- Blooded feat (grants +2 initiative and +2 to perception skill checks)
- Special (+1 to all attack rolls)
- Qualifies for the Wasted Warrior prestige class (if such a thing exists)

Alternatively, two characters might decide to belong to the Imperial Heralds
and recieve the following:

Character 1: Character 2:
- +1d8 hit dice - +1d8 hit dice
- Class skills (bluff, diplomacy) - Class skills (bluff, diplomacy)
- Class skills (Gather info, Perform)- Class skills (GatherInfo, Perform)
- +4 bonus to Diplomacy checks - +4 bonus to Perform checks
- Seductive feat - Cosmopolitan feat
(+3 bluff/diplomacy vs females) (class skill [open locks] +2)
- Special (+5 Action Points) - Special (+5 Action Points)
- Membership in the Imperial Heralds - Membership in the Imperial Heralds

As you can see, it`s a little more than a +5 bonus to Wilderness Lore and
cheating the PCs out of a level. The point was to have new ECL effects that
are actually balanced based on what you`d get if you levelled up.

I`m still not happy with it, but that`s the general idea. It`s easier to
implement than writing up whole prestige classes, better balanced, and still
perserves the general feel of various organizations. (None of these are
necessarily organizations or exact templates/backgrounds that I`m going to
use.)


> I am not sure if Defense has a place in BR. It works well in settings that
> use little to no armor. That is not BR. It could be done but why? If you
> wanted to use Damage Reduction for armor instead of AC, it might be worth
> the effort.

The "why" part is the most important aspect of all of this.
The reason is because I want my D&D game to still be a D&D game, but
translating 3E D&D characters into Birthright keeps having ludicrous
results.

The reason I`m giving a Defense bonuses to classes isn`t that people aren`t
wearing armor, it`s because people aren`t wearing magical/enchanted armor.
Other settings (such as Wheel of Time and Star Wars) that have replaced AC
armor bonuses with Damage Reduction are also not made to use the D&D Monster
Manual. My goal is to make level-based characters that are roughly equal in
power-base to D&D characters, so that I can run D&D-esque adventures in BR.

This way a high level fighter in this BR campaign will have a moderately
comparable AC to a mid level fighter in a typical D&D campaign who has an
Amulet of Natural Armor, a Shield +1, Full Plate +1, etc. The difference is
that the higher AC is derived from his class abilities and natural Defense
progression rather than all these bizzare magical enchantments and thousnads
of thousands of gold pieces accumulated from god-knows-where and given to
god-knows-who.

Similiar rationalizations exist as the reasons for all my other changes.
The goal is to have 7th level d20-Birthright characters who are roughly
balanced to 7th level 3E characters. Also, since PCs are often fighting
NPCs in my games, I want to have NPCs that are comparable to monsters (in
terms of difficulty or challenge) without giving them gobs of magic items
for the PCs to loot.

My Birthright campaign is fairly monster-heavy. On top of that, I love
using awnshiegh (especially the minor ones), and I love using templates and
ECL stuff for my NPCs and Awnsheighlein. I also don`t believe that most
people`s character concepts can really be created until around 4th-5th
level, so I want to start character generation there. In D&D your choice of
classes don`t matter so much as your choice of Prestige classes and magical
items -- I want to change that for my d20 BR game. I still want to use some
of the medium and high CR monsters in the Monster Manual. Despite the fact
that this is a fairly monster-heavy campaign, and that a frequent theme in
these campaigns is war with other realms or invading orogs or whatever, it`s
also a very magic-light campaign. Wizards, bards, druids, sorcerers, and
clerics (all reduced to a Spellcaster class in my campaign [with specialized
ECL templates]) are heavily retricted compared to their D&D 3E counterparts.
There also are not nearly as many magical items in this campaign.

Since I want the power bases to be roughly similiar, I have to take the
focus off magical items, and power up some of the feats, class abilities,
and template writeups of the various classes.

It should be noted that none of the things I`ve suggested in this email has
been actually playtested yet, as I don`t have a first draft of all these
rules. This thread represents the most comprehensive work done on this
project to date in terms of text, while most of my notes consist of
equations, matrices, and taglines/reminders.


> I do not get what you are saying here? They get the extra 10-18 Hit Points
> but don`t have any of the negative effects?

Yeah, actually that was exactly what I suggested earlier. Though the idea
has been refined a little since then.

All characters (in a moderately combat-heavy campaign without magic items)
will recieve a number of additional hitpoints (called Wound Points) equal to
half their Constitution (rounded down). This is free and has no drawbacks.
In addition, each time you gain a hit die, you also gain one Wound point.
(Fighters, as a class ability, will also recieve additional Wound points.)
Once your hitpoints are reduced to 0 all damage you take starts going to
Wound damage. Once you have to used up even a single Wound point, you are
considered Fatigued. Use up all your Wound points and you are dead. Wound
points are harder to heal than regular hitpoint damage. (Even by magic, it
takes time and skill.)


>Take a look at the WP/HP rules I
> directed you to earlier. It prevents instant kills - still mimics serious
> damage and such. There are others versions on the net that attempt to port
> WP/VP into fantasy - each takes a slightly different spin. I chose to leave
> all of the weapons alone rather than converting them all to my system but
> you might want to try something a little different.

I don`t really want to do anything else with the WP/HP system. I`m not
trying to make combat more deadly, as many people attribute to the Critical
Hit element of the VP/WP system, and I don`t want to make critical hits more
distinct. It`s not my objective. My goal was to help compensate for a
character`s lack of magical items in terms of combat power.

My objective is three fold:
1) to power up the basic classes or basic characters in a logical
level-based manner that is somewhat believable in a "realistic fantasy"
setting and equivilent in power to a D&D character of the same level (with
magic items and whatnot)
2) to take advantage of my favorite elements of 3E and rid elements of 3E
that I don`t like (hasn`t really been discussed yet in this thread)
3) to try to even out the power-up curve in D&D; so that, for example, a
character with four levels in two classes is an equivelent power level to a
character with eight levels in a single class. (Also not really discussed
in this thread.)


> I think everyone should have the option to select a feat for `adaptative
> learning` but if you use the character creation system for WoT (mentioned
> above) that kinda negates the need to do multiple free skill bonuses.

Yeah, but I haven`t really decided if I`m going to use the character
creation system for Wot. Like I said, I think if I use them, they should be
improved a little and given an ECL. I also think they might be better in a
Birthright setting for representing specific organizations (`cause we have
so many of those and I think it`s cool to have rules to distinguish between
them).

But yeah, I agree with your above statement. One of my players, however,
really insists that players should be able to create a background by
choosing at least two class skills, and I generally agree with the
principle. It`s worth a shot. But yeah, the Wheel of Time backgrounds kind
of defeat the necessity of it.



> Maybe more on the rest but I would have to look at it better.

Ditto.


-Lord Rahvin

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.