"Classless" Regency Income System

[Birthright-L]

Hello,

I think I posted this idea some time ago in this list. It was in draft state, so now goes the full idea (with some playtest): this system is for taking out regency from character classes, and instead, giving it to a new thing called "Regency Marks".

When a player creates a regent, he starts with 30 Regent Design Points. He can use these points to buy his bloodline (so you don´t roll it anymore (this is from my game: my players don´t like rolling bloodline strength)) and regency marks. Regency marks determine where do you collect regeny from, and modify some other things (like the cost of levels when you design a realm, some actions,...). If you like to roll bloodlines, give your players 20 Regent Design Points instead of 30 (the system asumes that a normal character will have a bloodline strength of 20).

If you don´t like to design your realms using the rules in the rulebook, give all major "basic marks" 2/3 level income instead of 1/2. Extra marks are probably a little harder to change.

The basic cost when you design a realm is the one stated in the rulebook except:

- 1 level of everything (except fortification) costs 3 Domain Design Points (unless you have a mark for it).
- 1 trade route = 3 Domain Design Points (same as above).
- 1 Domain Design Point = 5 GB in armies = 5 GB in treasury (same again)

An example: Barlak the fighter decides he will play a Maximus (Gladiator) type of guy. He buys "Military Mark, Major", "Warlord, Mark, Major", "Law Mark, Major" and "Popular Mark, Minor". He has used up 5+3+5+1 = 14 points. He decides Barlak comes from an important line of scions, using his other 16 points to get a bloodline strength of 32.

He earns regency from his military units (their maintenance in gb is his income in rp), from his law (1/2 level of law in rp), for being highly popular (1 rp for every province in high loyalty) and extra points when he is in war (+20% RP). He also sees that he can declare war as a free action once per turn (more than enough for him).

Seing that, he decides he is not going to have many holdings: he will be probably a lieutenant for another character (he can be a perfect frontier general, asuming the protection of border provinces). We let Barlak with building his kindom...

Well, I´ll post the marks now. Caution: the post is quite long. Comments would be highly appreciated.

/********** SPECIAL MARKS **********/

/******* Bloodline Strength ********/
The power of your bloodline.

1 Regent Design Point = +2 Bloodline Strength

/******* Domain Mark *******/
Your family has the nack to develop the true potential of a domain.

1 Regent Design Point = +3 Domain Design Points

/*********** BASIC MARKS **********/

/************ Land Mark ***********/
Having lands is related to your personal power. Your regency increases with the size of your kingdom.

Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Population Level
Regency Income = Population Level / 4 (rounded down)

Minor (Cost 3 Points)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Population Level
Regency Income = Population Level / 3 (rounded up)

Major (Cost 6 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Population Level
Regency Income = Population Level / 2 (rounded up)

Great (Cost 10 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Population Level
Regency Income = Population Level

/************ Law Mark ************/
Your blood reacts to law. Wielding the power of ordering other people lives gives you strength and ability to help your cause further.

Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Law Level
Regency Income = Law Level / 4 (rounded down)

Minor (Cost 2 Points)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Law Level
Regency Income = Law Level / 3 (rounded up)

Major (Cost 5 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Law Level
Regency Income = Law Level / 2 (rounded up)

Great (Cost 7 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Law Level
Regency Income = Law Level

/************ Guild Mark ***********/
Comerce, trading, resources,... Your regency relates to them as they relate to the welfare and prosperity of a province.

Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Guild Level
Regency Income = Guild Level / 4 (rounded down)

Minor (Cost 2 Points)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Guild Level
Regency Income = Guild Level / 3 (rounded up)

Major (Cost 5 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Guild Level
Regency Income = Guild Level / 2 (rounded up)

Great (Cost 7 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Guild Level
Regency Income = Guild Level

/*********** Temple Mark ***********/
Having the faith of other people centered in you, acting as a nexus between it and your god makes your regency stronger. When they believe in him, they believe in you.

Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Temple Level
Regency Income = Temple Level / 4 (rounded down)

Minor (Cost 2 Points)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Temple Level
Regency Income = Temple Level / 3 (rounded up)

Major (Cost 5 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Temple Level
Regency Income = Temple Level / 2 (rounded up)

Great (Cost 7 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Temple Level
Regency Income = Temple Level

/*********** Source Mark ***********/
The ancient power of magic is related to bloodline. But in your case, it´s nearly united: they wax and wane together.

Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Source Level
Regency Income = Source Level / 4 (rounded down)

Minor (Cost 2 Points)
2 Domain Design Point = 1 Source Level
Regency Income = Source Level / 3 (rounded up)

Major (Cost 5 Points)
1 Domain Design Points = 1 Source Level
Regency Income = Source Level / 2 (rounded up)

Great (Cost 7 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Source Level
Regency Income = Source Level


/*********** EXTRA MARKS **********/

/********** Warlord Mark **********/
The clash of steel, the cries of battle, men rallying their banners and entering the fight. That´s what gives you power.

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
+10% Regency during wars

Major (Cost 3 Points)
Declare War as a free action once per turn
+20% Regency during wars

/********* Sorcerer Mark **********/
You bear the mark of a true wizard, and you can cast spells easily and in a more effective way than other spellcasters.

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
Arcane Realm Spells cost -10% regency

Major (Cost 3 Points)
Cast Arcane Realm Spell as a free action once per turn
Arcane Realm Spells cost -20% regency

/********** Saint Mark ************/
Miracles and other wonders showing the power of your god come easily from you.

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
Divine Realm Spells cost -10% regency

Major (Cost 3 Points)
Cast Divine Realm Spell as a free action once per turn
Divine Realm Spells cost -20% regency

/********** Militar Mark **********/
Soldiers, units, armies... The bigger their number, the better for you. Your endless legions provide you military and political might.

Minor (Cost 2 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 7 GB in Armies
Gain RP = 1/2 Army GB maintenance

Major (cost 5 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 10 GB in Armies
Gain RP = Army GB maintenance

/********* Popular Mark **********/
Love from your people. Being admired, being a model for the children of your peasants and nobles helps you to be even better for them.

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
Each province in high loyalty gives you 1 RP

Major (Cost 3 Points)
Each province in average loyalty gives you 1 RP
Each province in high loyalty gives you 2 RP
Agitate as a free action once per turn

/********** Trader Mark **********/
Money changing from someone hands to another ones, the flow of resources between different parts of the world,... Trading is good for your guilds, for your country,... and for you.

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
2 Domain Design Points = 1 Trade Route
Gain RP = 1/2 Trade Route income

Major (Cost 3 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 1 Trade Route
Gain RP = Trade Route income

/********** Economy Mark *********/
You can never save enough money!

Minor (Cost 1 Point)
1 Domain Design Point = 7 GB
Gain RP = 10% of saved GB

Major (Cost 3 Points)
1 Domain Design Point = 10 GB
Gain RP = 20% of saved GB

Hope you enjoyed it! Sorry for the long post. Greetings,

Vicente

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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Zaor wrote:

> this system is for taking out regency from character classes, and
> instead, giving it to a new thing called "Regency Marks".

Intriguing! I really like the ability to so completely customize your
regency style, though I would quibble with the specific numbers.

> He can use these points to buy his bloodline (so you don`t roll it
> anymore (this is from my game: my players don`t like rolling bloodline
> strength)) and regency marks.

In play, regents can use RP to increase their bloodline score. Is there a
way for players to, over the course of a game, increase their regency
marks? For example, after several years of successful campaigning, could
a regent upgrade a minor warlord mark to a major one, or even add one from
scratch if he had planned to be a guilder but found himself often at war?

> He earns regency from his military units (their maintenance in gb
> is his income in rp),

That seems like an awful lot of RP to me. Admittedly, having a large army
at your command tends to make people listen to what you have to say, but I
don`t think a military specialist who leads just two units of knights
ought to be the political equal of a land specialist who owns a level-4
province and can raise as many knights as he wants -- especially as with
your current numbers, Warlord Major is only half the cost of Land Great.

> Seing that, he decides he is not going to have many holdings: he
> will be probably a lieutenant for another character (he can be a
> perfect frontier general, asuming the protection of border provinces).

So what will he use his RP for? His liege lord ought to be worried about
whether Barlak is going to be a little too much like a Roman frontier
general, and try to claim the crown for his own once he has enough.

> /********** SPECIAL MARKS **********/
> 1 Regent Design Point = +2 Bloodline Strength
> 1 Regent Design Point = +3 Domain Design Points

So these two are inherent to every regent character, yes?

> /************ Land Mark ***********/
> Tainted (Cost 1 Point)
> Regency Income = Population Level / 4 (rounded down)
> Great (Cost 10 Points)
> Regency Income = Population Level

I think these tend to undervalue provinces, especially as it only
costs 7 points to get full regency from a non-province holding! To
try to reproduce the original rules` notion that everyone likes to own
provinces (which I endorse), I`d either make these much cheaper or
much more effective -- if I`m going to plunk down 10 points for Land
Mark, Great, I want it to be at least *two* RP per province level. I`d be
happier with just three levels: minor (1/4 for 1), major (1/2 for 2) and
great (1/1 for 4).

> /********** Warlord Mark **********/
> Minor (Cost 1 Point)
> +10% Regency during wars

This is an amusing idea, in that it encourages people to undertake
dangerous and expensive projects when they are short of RP. One question,
though: what does "during wars" mean? IMO, the Declare War action only
lasts one action round, and must be selected as your domain action in
every action round you want to have your troops move on foreign soil;
however, RP are only collected once every domain turn (three action
rounds). I don`t see how this one works.

> /********* Sorcerer Mark **********/
> Major (Cost 3 Points)
> Cast Arcane Realm Spell as a free action once per turn
> /********** Saint Mark ************/
> Major (Cost 3 Points)
> Cast Divine Realm Spell as a free action once per turn

That`s quite impressive. I`d say it`s too powerful for so low a cost.

> /********** Military Mark **********/
> Minor (Cost 2 Points)
> Gain RP = 1/2 Army GB maintenance
> Major (cost 5 Points)
> Gain RP = Army GB maintenance

As I said above, I think 1/2 and 1 are too high; I`d say better fractions
would be more like 1/5 and 1/2, but even that I don`t really like. I`d be
more comfortable implementing this kind of idea as a reduction in GB cost
of maintenance, say 10% and 25% discounts.

> /********* Popular Mark **********/
> Major (Cost 3 Points)
> Each province in average loyalty gives you 1 RP
> Each province in high loyalty gives you 2 RP
> Agitate as a free action once per turn

Wow. Again, as balanced against what it costs to get full regency from a
holding type, I think this is too powerful for the price. That is my
primary objection to your point values in general: perhaps as a way to
encourage the new ideas, they are much too cheap relative to the old
standards of simple holding ownership.

> /********** Economy Mark *********/
> Minor (Cost 1 Point)
> Gain RP = 10% of saved GB
> Major (Cost 3 Points)
> Gain RP = 20% of saved GB

This is actually the one that scares me the most, as I envision a wizard
or dragon or other long-lived creature that picks just this, a moderate
bloodline and a sizable treasury, then goes into hiding for a few decades
only to emerge with enough RP to take over any realm it wants... or
perhaps that is exactly the explanation you`d give for the Magian?


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

Hello,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

thanks a lot for your comments. You´ve done very nice points.

> Intriguing! I really like the ability to so completely customize your
> regency style, though I would quibble with the specific numbers.

Well, some numbers or abilities are probably influenced by our way of
playing, so maybe some numbers are a little low or some marks to powerful
for their cost. You could go making all special marks cost 2 for minor and 5
for major.

> In play, regents can use RP to increase their bloodline score. Is there a
> way for players to, over the course of a game, increase their regency
> marks? For example, after several years of successful campaigning, could
> a regent upgrade a minor warlord mark to a major one, or even add one from
> scratch if he had planned to be a guilder but found himself often at war?

I haven´t come up with any rule that I like to allow upgrading or earning
new regency marks. I think I´m going with the roleplaying part, as the
campaigning example you give. If a character keeps doing something well for
a lot of time, that mark will probably go up.

> That seems like an awful lot of RP to me. Admittedly, having a large army
> at your command tends to make people listen to what you have to say, but I
> don`t think a military specialist who leads just two units of knights
> ought to be the political equal of a land specialist who owns a level-4
> province and can raise as many knights as he wants -- especially as with
> your current numbers, Warlord Major is only half the cost of Land Great.

Land gives more power appart from rp. If you don´t own land, you can´t
recruit troops, recieve income,... That´s why the cost of basic marks is
higher than the cost of extra marks. But you could halve the numbers: 1/4
and 1/2.

> So what will he use his RP for? His liege lord ought to be worried about
> whether Barlak is going to be a little too much like a Roman frontier
> general, and try to claim the crown for his own once he has enough.

Well, that claim attempt could happen. If he is a lieutenant, he will
give some of his rp collection to his lord, and in exchange, he could get
some money or permission to recruit armies. He could use his regency to
develop the provinces were he is stationed, agitate the new provinces he
conquers to raise loyalty,... Barlak could even pay some of his armies with
rp (not very wise, but sometimes necessary).

Melisande Reaversbane (from heavens of the great bay), the captain of
Müden navy is quite similar to this Barlak, although with only bloodline
strength 13 as she has, it´s quite easily to get the maximun (she has enough
law holdings to reach that number).

> > /********** SPECIAL MARKS **********/
> > 1 Regent Design Point = +2 Bloodline Strength
> > 1 Regent Design Point = +3 Domain Design Points
>
> So these two are inherent to every regent character, yes?

Yes. I don´t like much the 1 rdp = +3 ddp, because 1 rdp = +2 bloodline
(and thus, +2 ddp), but even it´s not a big win buying ddp rather than
bloodline, my players have spent from 3 to 5 points in that mark, so I don´t
feel very confortable changing it to +4 ddp. I can post my players marks if
it´s some interest.

> I think these tend to undervalue provinces, especially as it only
> costs 7 points to get full regency from a non-province holding! To
> try to reproduce the original rules` notion that everyone likes to own
> provinces (which I endorse), I`d either make these much cheaper or
> much more effective -- if I`m going to plunk down 10 points for Land
> Mark, Great, I want it to be at least *two* RP per province level. I`d be
> happier with just three levels: minor (1/4 for 1), major (1/2 for 2) and
> great (1/1 for 4).

Land rulers hold great power in that they limit the maximun level of
holdings, they can affect all subjects in their realm, they can limit army
raising, they earn money,... Maybe it´s style of play, but normally, all the
other regents (except source regents) always bow to the land ruler. And if
he holds the law, much more. Also, some of the math was done to try to make
birthright classes regency income similar: a fighter would have land, great
and law, great (using 17 points). 10 for bloodline makes 27. So he would
have 3 more (probably some fighting marks, or increasing his domain or his
bloodmark).

For the levels: I put them that way (tainted, minor,...) to follow
bloodline levels (I was tempted to add a fith level: True (I would put this
one the 2 rp per level), but I decided to let it out (is as strange as a
true bloodline: I imagine "Source, True" goes quite well for the regent of
Thuarievel).

> > /********** Warlord Mark **********/
> > Minor (Cost 1 Point)
> > +10% Regency during wars
>
> This is an amusing idea, in that it encourages people to undertake
> dangerous and expensive projects when they are short of RP. One question,
> though: what does "during wars" mean? IMO, the Declare War action only
> lasts one action round, and must be selected as your domain action in
> every action round you want to have your troops move on foreign soil;
> however, RP are only collected once every domain turn (three action
> rounds). I don`t see how this one works.

Yes, declare war only lasts one action in the rulebook. We have as a
house rule that Declare War lasts for a full domain turn (also to encourage
war, although I must admit we never felt very confortable with the way war
is handled in the rulebook).


> > /********* Sorcerer Mark **********/
> > Major (Cost 3 Points)
> > Cast Arcane Realm Spell as a free action once per turn
> > /********** Saint Mark ************/
> > Major (Cost 3 Points)
> > Cast Divine Realm Spell as a free action once per turn
>
> That`s quite impressive. I`d say it`s too powerful for so low a cost.

I found my spellcasting regents weren´t normally casting many spells as
they normally run out of actions: having to do diplomacies, taking care of
problems, researching,... They didn´t cast spells as often as someone could
expect from a wizard (and clerics less and less: they are more political
involved usually). That´s the reason of the free action.

> > /********** Military Mark **********/
> > Minor (Cost 2 Points)
> > Gain RP = 1/2 Army GB maintenance
> > Major (cost 5 Points)
> > Gain RP = Army GB maintenance
>
> As I said above, I think 1/2 and 1 are too high; I`d say better fractions
> would be more like 1/5 and 1/2, but even that I don`t really like. I`d be
> more comfortable implementing this kind of idea as a reduction in GB cost
> of maintenance, say 10% and 25% discounts.

Could also work. But I liked more the regency income to keep all marks
related to regency points. If I was going to give a discount, I would make
units cheaper to maintain through the use of regency points (4 points for
minor and 3 for major. That would reflect maintaining them thanks to
personal charisma, magnetism,...)

> > /********* Popular Mark **********/
> > Major (Cost 3 Points)
> > Each province in average loyalty gives you 1 RP
> > Each province in high loyalty gives you 2 RP
> > Agitate as a free action once per turn
>
> Wow. Again, as balanced against what it costs to get full regency from a
> holding type, I think this is too powerful for the price. That is my
> primary objection to your point values in general: perhaps as a way to
> encourage the new ideas, they are much too cheap relative to the old
> standards of simple holding ownership.

Most people don´t have many provinces, and it´s quite hard to have them
in good loyalty levels. But probably you have some point here in the values.
I don´t think I did it in purpose, but maybe to encourage my players I let
them too cheap. I´ll review them ;)

> > /********** Economy Mark *********/
> > Minor (Cost 1 Point)
> > Gain RP = 10% of saved GB
> > Major (Cost 3 Points)
> > Gain RP = 20% of saved GB
>
> This is actually the one that scares me the most, as I envision a wizard
> or dragon or other long-lived creature that picks just this, a moderate
> bloodline and a sizable treasury, then goes into hiding for a few decades
> only to emerge with enough RP to take over any realm it wants... or
> perhaps that is exactly the explanation you`d give for the Magian?

Don´t know the Magian case (only have birthright setting box, heavens and
some domain books). I would like to hear its history.

And for the mark. The explanation was too short: it´s economy mark, not
"bank account mark" ;) Money has to get in or out (you must have some income
and/or expenses), you can`t just sit and see your regency go up.

Hope that helps. I´m going to review some numbers ;)

Greetings,

Vicente

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[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Zaor wrote:

> thanks a lot for your comments.

You`re welcome. I love exploring variant rules. =)

OTOH, I am somewhat ashamed to admit I rarely say anything about those
given as website references, in part because I so rarely get around to
actually looking them up. Sorry, Starfox. :/

> Well, some numbers or abilities are probably influenced by our way of
> playing, so maybe some numbers are a little low or some marks to
> powerful for their cost.

This is an interesting point in itself -- balancing costs depends to a
certain extent on guessing how people will use the abilities they buy, but
not I think an overwhelming one.

> Land gives more power apart from rp. If you don`t own land, you can`t
> recruit troops, recieve income,

True. However, all this power is obtainable without a Land Mark of any
kind -- just as people without Law Marks can still own law holdings and
use them to make claims against other holdings` income, suppress trade
routes, and levy some kinds of troops; and anyone who wants more cash can
create some guild holdings and trade routes during play. In each case,
the only during-play area in which regents differ by class in the original
system is the amount of RP they collect from these holdings, not what else
they can do with them (except for realm spells). Therefore, it seems to
me that the Marks should only affect RP- and DDP-related things, and in
the original system everyone got full RP from land, so Land Marks should
be cheap.

> Land rulers hold great power in that they limit the maximun level of
> holdings, they can affect all subjects in their realm, they can limit
> army raising, they earn money,...

Agreed (though they need law to be any good at raising money). Perhaps
this means buying a good DDP-to-province-level conversion should be
expensive, but I still think RP-from-land should be cheap, because these
functions are entirely separate from RP per se.

> Also, some of the math was done to try to make
> birthright classes regency income similar:

Yes, but *everyone* had Land, Great in the original rules, so its point
value can`t really be determined this way.

> For the levels: I put them that way (tainted, minor,...) to follow
> bloodline levels

Yes, I gathered that. But some (like some blood abilities) have only
major & minor, and I saw a place for a 3-level system (minor, major and
great, like some other blood abilities), so I went with it.

> (I was tempted to add a fith level: True (I would put this one the 2
> rp per level), but I decided to let it out (is as strange as a true
> bloodline: I imagine "Source, True" goes quite well for the regent of
> Thuarievel).

This sounds fairly reasonable to me, as long as you do keep it that rare.

> Yes, declare war only lasts one action in the rulebook. We have as a
> house rule that Declare War lasts for a full domain turn (also to
> encourage war, although I must admit we never felt very confortable
> with the way war is handled in the rulebook).

So you think one Declare War should give 12 War Moves, not 4? If for some
reason a regent did a Declare War in an action round other than the first,
would you let the war moves extend into the next domain turn?

> I found my spellcasting regents weren`t normally casting many spells
> as they normally run out of actions: having to do diplomacies, taking
> care of problems, researching,... They didn`t cast spells as often as
> someone could expect from a wizard (and clerics less and less: they
> are more political involved usually). That`s the reason of the free
> action.

Hmm. You may have something here, though I`d be more comfortable making
Research the free action.

> Could also work. But I liked more the regency income to keep all marks
> related to regency points.

True. However, even with the perfectly reasonable discount you suggest,
maintaining units with RP is grossly expensive.

> > > /********* Popular Mark **********/
> Most people don`t have many provinces,

And they need this to make the ones they have worth the price...

> But probably you have some point here in the values. I don`t think I
> did it in purpose, but maybe to encourage my players I let them too
> cheap. I`ll review them ;)

=) I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

> Don`t know the Magian case (only have birthright setting box, heavens
> and some domain books). I would like to hear its history.

Ah, the Magian is probably my favorite awnshegh. He is a lich-like
creature (though whether actually undead or just an undead-like awnshegh
like the Vampire is a subject of some debate) of great magical prowess who
arrived suddenly from parts unknown `several years ago`, and almost
instantly took over the formerly Vos/Khinasi hybrid realm of Pripyat. He
is officially Evil, but he seems to treat his people fairly well -- as he
is a smart supervillain and knows he needs a powerful realm at his
disposal in order to conquer the world; or if you believe his "press
release" in the Blood Enemies book, he simply believes that benevolent
dictatorship under his guidance is the surest path to human happiness.
This sudden complete absorption of an entire realm by a total unknown
could be explained in game mechanics terms by having a huge number (a
thousand, perhaps?) of RPs stored up so as to easily win all resolution
die rolls until managing one massive contested investiture; or else as the
result of a few extremely impressive character actions, as seems rather
reasonable for a 20th-level wizard with a dozen death knight buddies
(actually, one good charm person on the previous regent, to get him to
invest you as heir, would have done fine).

> And for the mark. The explanation was too short: it´s economy mark,
> not "bank account mark" ;) Money has to get in or out (you must have
> some income and/or expenses), you can`t just sit and see your regency
> go up.

OK, that`s better, but then what exactly does the word "saved" in your
formula "Gain RP = 20% of saved GB" mean?


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

OTOH, I am somewhat ashamed to admit I rarely say anything about those
given as website references, in part because I so rarely get around to
actually looking them up. Sorry, Starfox. :/


That is OK - I long ago learned to quote the important parts of what Iwant
to say in the letter, and only include the URL for reference.

/Starfox



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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Zaor wrote:
>
>>He earns regency from his military units (their maintenance in gb
>>is his income in rp),
>>
>That seems like an awful lot of RP to me. Admittedly, having a large army
>at your command tends to make people listen to what you have to say, but I
>don`t think a military specialist who leads just two units of knights
>ought to be the political equal of a land specialist who owns a level-4
>province and can raise as many knights as he wants -- especially as with
>your current numbers, Warlord Major is only half the cost of Land Great.
>
If you look at the opposite - paying troops with regency instead of gold
- you have to spend 1 RP for 5 GB
if I remember the values correct, then one could simply say that a
warlord could earn RP equal to the GB maintenance of his troops divided
by 5?
bye
Michael

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> If you look at the opposite - paying troops with regency instead of gold
> - you have to spend 1 RP for 5 GB
> if I remember the values correct, then one could simply say that a
> warlord could earn RP equal to the GB maintenance of his troops divided
> by 5?

I think you have it the wrong way. It`s 4 RP/GB maintenance.

It`s a bad rule. Soldiers are an expense, they shouldn`t be a source of
income.

To put it another way, if RP are power, then soldiers are the trappings of
power, not the source of it, so they don`t generate RP.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

Hello,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

>You`re welcome. I love exploring variant rules. =)

Me too ;)

>This is an interesting point in itself -- balancing costs depends to a
>certain extent on guessing how people will use the abilities they buy, but
>not I think an overwhelming one.

Well, also style of play can influence balancing a lot. The extra marks
don´t get out of hand in my games because "holding" or "land" rulers have
much more politicial weight (not dependent of the rp) in a realm (translated
in actions, resources,...).

>True. However, all this power is obtainable without a Land Mark of any
>kind -- just as people without Law Marks can still own law holdings and
>use them to make claims against other holdings` income, suppress trade
>routes, and levy some kinds of troops; and anyone who wants more cash can
>create some guild holdings and trade routes during play. In each case,
>the only during-play area in which regents differ by class in the original
>system is the amount of RP they collect from these holdings, not what else
>they can do with them (except for realm spells). Therefore, it seems to
>me that the Marks should only affect RP- and DDP-related things, and in
>the original system everyone got full RP from land, so Land Marks should
>be cheap.

Well, maybe my problem in the costs is the assumption that someone
without land mark is not going to have lands: paying 3 points per land level
is way too expensive to get land (same with the rest of holdings). And also
that the act of creating some guilds (or another holding) during play to
earn money or political power is quite hard: there aren´t nearly any empty
spaces in the realms described in the rulebooks. As we always design our
realms, we don´t have the problem of someone getting a realm full of some
thing (temples for example) and not having a mark for that holding (although
that could happen, but it should be strange).

>Yes, but *everyone* had Land, Great in the original rules, so its point
>value can`t really be determined this way.

Yes, you´ve reason here.

>Yes, I gathered that. But some (like some blood abilities) have only
>major & minor, and I saw a place for a 3-level system (minor, major and
>great, like some other blood abilities), so I went with it.

Valid aproach. But I like more the 4 levels aproach (I use it everywhere
in my birth games ;)

>This sounds fairly reasonable to me, as long as you do keep it that rare.

I´m going with that: True gives double rp, but it´s very, very strange
(and you need a true bloodline).

>So you think one Declare War should give 12 War Moves, not 4? If for some
>reason a regent did a Declare War in an action round other than the first,
>would you let the war moves extend into the next domain turn?

They get war moves till the end of the turn. But this action is a very
"house-rule thing". It allows to conquer enemies, invest provinces, and move
full armies into enemy territories... You can move into an enemy realm small
strike groups (raiding, scouting,...) without declaring war. For us, Declare
War is a full scale conflict, not some skirmishes.

>Hmm. You may have something here, though I`d be more comfortable making
>Research the free action.

Well, could do too. But I prefer my spellcasters being more active, so I
gave them a more useful power (and it has not unbalanced the game as they
run out of resources to cast spells if the cast too many).

>True. However, even with the perfectly reasonable discount you suggest,
>maintaining units with RP is grossly expensive.

Yes, quite expensive. You could reduce it more (but then it would be too
cheap in my opinion, and I don´t feel well making them pay 2.5 rp ;)

>And they need this to make the ones they have worth the price...

This could make them worth more. You can´t have all marks and powerful
bloodline, so you must choose carefully how many rp you earn, and your
maximum ;) (none of my players has chosen this mark)

>=) I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

I´ll post it as soon as I review it (although I´m now playing with the
"holdings as classes" thing ;) )

>Ah, the Magian is probably my favorite awnshegh. He is a lich-like
>creature (though whether actually undead or just an undead-like awnshegh

Whoah. That´s a nasty awnshegh. Nice to know from him (every awnshegh is
normally a new world full of problems to the players ;) )

>OK, that`s better, but then what exactly does the word "saved" in your
>formula "Gain RP = 20% of saved GB" mean?

Before you roll your turn income, you get rp. You get 20% of the gb you
have in your treasury in that moment. But you need to have a source of
income and/or expenses to get that percentage. Just sitting with some gb
saved is not going to generate any rp for you.

Greetings,

Vicente

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[Birthright-L]

Hello,

> I think you have it the wrong way. It`s 4 RP/GB maintenance.
>
> It`s a bad rule. Soldiers are an expense, they shouldn`t be a source of
> income.

I would admit it´s a different rule, a strange rule, an "I don´t like"
rule,... but a bad rule? Why they can´t be a source of income? The concept
of RP is quite "cloudy" too say the best: if could be faith in a person,
political power, something else, a mix of everything,... And as a temple
regent gets rp for holding the faith of his followers, the general could get
rp from his armies... And a general with armies gets also some political
power,....

> To put it another way, if RP are power, then soldiers are the trappings of
> power, not the source of it, so they don`t generate RP.

They can´t be a source of power because they could use that power to be
maintained??? I don´t get the logic of that argument...

Greetings

Vicente

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Zaor wrote:

> "land" rulers have much more politicial weight (not dependent of the
> rp) in a realm (translated in actions, resources,...).

Province rulers have more actions? That sounds interesting. Tell me more.

> Well, maybe my problem in the costs is the assumption that someone
> without land mark is not going to have lands: paying 3 points per land
> level is way too expensive to get land

Not going to buy it at start, but what about acquiring it during play?

> And also that the act of creating some guilds (or another holding)
> during play to earn money or political power is quite hard: there
> aren`t nearly any empty spaces in the realms described in the
> rulebooks.

But province rulers have it easy. If you want guild slots, you can just
Occupy your own provinces for a month and clean everyone else out --
unless, of course, the guild you take them from has powerful friends
elsewhere. If landed rulers got desperate enough for the money generated
by holdings, every nonlanded guild or temple regent in Cerilia could be
eliminated practically overnight.

> full armies into enemy territories... You can move into an enemy realm
> small strike groups (raiding, scouting,...) without declaring war. For
> us, Declare War is a full scale conflict, not some skirmishes.

I think the action is badly named. I use it to mean simply "conduct
military operations for a month," which is precisely how the rulebook uses
it -- if they hadn`t called it *declare* war, I think there would have
been much less tinkering with the rules for it. I`ve not completely
settled on an alternate name for it, but at present I kind of like calling
it just "Combat". The actual declaration of war in the modern sense is an
instantaneous political act, best implemented in BR IMO if at all by a pro
forma Decree action, or possibly Diplomacy if you want to get fancy. I
really like the idea expressed in the rules that fighting a foreign war
takes up large portions of the regent`s time, and thereby reduces the
amount of attention available to be paid to domestic political issues.

> Well, could do too. But I prefer my spellcasters being more active, so
> I gave them a more useful power (and it has not unbalanced the game as
> they run out of resources to cast spells if they cast too many).

Good point.

> This could make them worth more. You can`t have all marks and
> powerful bloodline, so you must choose carefully how many rp you
> earn, and your maximum ;)

True, but this is one of the reasons I asked about whether you allowed
people to gain marks during play -- since bloodline can be increased by
spending RP (yes, it`s expensive, but it is possible), if marks can`t then
if you`re planning for the long term it makes sense at the start to pick a
relatively low bloodline and lots of marks to "grow into".

> every awnshegh is normally a new world full of problems to the players ;)

Oh yes! If you can get your hands on the "Blood Enemies" book, I think
you will find a great many things of interest.

> Before you roll your turn income, you get rp. You get 20% of the gb
> you have in your treasury in that moment. But you need to have a
> source of income and/or expenses to get that percentage. Just sitting
> with some gb saved is not going to generate any rp for you.

OK, I still don`t quite get how this works. Where is the restriction? If
I have 2,000 GB in my treasury but my income is only 5 GB per season, how
many RP do I get? Gaining RP from income, maybe -- but gaining it from
savings seems like opening the door to disastrous compound interest.


Ryan Caveney

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