My 2 cents

[AnakinMiller]

Poorly written material does not sell. Gamers always say they would pay money for a cheap, crappy copy of some long abandoned campaign setting, but in truth, they wouldn`t. When a publisher begins to steadily put out lousy material, just as TSR did toward the end of its life, it loses its popularity. The 3rd Edition core books have been out for about 3 years now, and have already outsold the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct bearing on popularity.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that is selling extremely well is the FR setting. That is unavoidable, unfortunately. Has anyone seen anymore Greyhawk material? Strange that since D&D 3e`s default world is Greyhawk. Speaking of Quality in Core books, I have been disappoited severely with the 3e Core books. The Manual of the Planes was terrible. The Deities and Demigods smacked me as a munchin fest. I hate the fact that they put stats on gods. No PC should be able to take on a god and actually have such a good chance at victory that stats are needed. The epic level handbook? I sold it 2 hours after I bought it. That the most Uber Munchin Fest book I think I have ever read. It was like reading my HackMaster books (well not exactly, I know HackMaster is ment to be a monty haul filled joke. The book of Vile Darkness while different, was useless in my games. I don`t tend to run high demonic/corruption plotlines.

Now I offer these items as the qualities I love about Birthright:

The fact that it did not....

have drow.....
have gnomes.....
have half dragons....
have 100001 different gods whose portfolios ranged from "The god of apples picked on tuesdays" to the Evil Lord of the Western Most Peak of the Southern Mountain Range of Doom.....
have an oriental/eastern/kung-fu/ninja setting......
have 23rd level bards/wizards/thieves on every corner......
have more than 2 dozen true wizards in anuire.......
have more than a dozen dragons in the world.....
have orcs, orges, 32 different species of dragons.....
allow demihuman subraces.....
gunpowder..... (Ok maybe it did but its still damn primitive and not widely used (ie waves of cerilia from Dragon Magazine))

I prefer a setting with more restrictions and less options. If you want to play in a campaign where you are an elven battle monk who hangs out with Johny the Gnoll and Markus the Barbarian why in the hell are yall setting it in Cerilia? Drop your group in a world whose history and racial interaction works for the party idea. Cerilia is not about multiracial interaction. It is a world filled with bigotry and outright racial hatred.

Humans hate Elves/Half-Elves/Orogs/Goblins/Gnolls
Elves/Hlf Elves hate Humans, Gnolls, Goblins
Orogs hate Humans/Elves/Goblins/Dwarves/Gnolls
Dwarves hate everyone else
Goblins hate Elves/Half-Elves/Humans/Orogs/Dwarves

Would I disallow Goblins as PCs? Not automatically. While goblins are hated outright in many areas of Cerilia, in the Northern Marches and Western Coast there are some neutral human/goblin interaction.
Would I disallow Gnolls as a PC? Yes, unless I was running a campaign set in or around the Gnoll fords in the Vos neck of the woods.
Would I disallow Minotaurs as a PC? Yes.... I saw enough players trying to cheese for super stats with those in 2e and I`ll be damned if a Minotaur is gonna come to power as a regent anywhere in Anuire (which is where I typically set my games.)

If anyone on the design team is reading this and keeping any sort of tally, but me down for a thumbs up on the idea for a sidebar entry on goblins PCs but a thumbs down on any planetouched, gensai, gnolls, etc.

That`s not what I`m disputing. Without the spirit and fervor of the people on this forum, this would never have come to be. Remaining true to the spirit of Birthright is essential, but there has to be new growth.

But the growth that is being suggested does not remain true to the spirit of Birthright. What is being suggested is to add a bunch of garbage that needs to stay in the forgotten realms. I find no reason to allow Planetouched/Gensai/Minotaur/Gnoll/Saghauin/Monk/Gnome/Psionic PCs

There are no psionics either...same reasoning

Just to play devils advocate, there where psionics in cerilia. The Hydra is formed from a former Psionicist. It is to my knowledge the only one mentioned in cannon material. The Campaign Setting recommended disallowing them.

Which speaking of that, I believe that the final draft of the Atlas of Cerilia should have another sidebar recommending banning Psionics/Planetouched/Gensai/Minotaurs/Gnolls/Saghauin/Monks/Gnomes

Magic items are much easier to acquire than feats. Magic items require the money and the availability, not having to wait two or three levels until you get another feat.

I personally believe aquiring feats should be easier than aquiring magic items in Cerilia. There simply are not many magic items floating around. The campaign is a low magic one. There are not hordes of items to found/bought/sold/auctioned. Getting a feat in the archery chain of feats would often be much easier than gaining a magical bow.

Stub file failed:
dos4gw.exe no such file or directory

You don`t have the Dos4Gw file on your computer. You need it in one of your path directories for the program to work. Many older Dos programs required this file.

Monks in Cerilia

(Sorry if this has been beaten to death, I`ve been offline since the day the alpha draft of BR d20 was released.)

Monks have absolutely NO place in Cerilia. There is not a single culture here that would create the Ki wielding mystic warriors. If you want to play a character that fights unarmed, then roll up a fighter and take unarmed fighting feats. It lets you play the concept of an unarmed warrior. You don`t get all the Ki and other "magic" monk abilities, but then again you shouldn`t. Sorry no Jackie Chan vs. The Black Knight.

-Anakin Miller

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[Birthright-L]

The only dispute I have with your statement is that the World of Greyhawk is
pumping out more material than any other branch of D&D campaign worlds.
This year alone there will probably be more than 100 modules alone that will
be published.

Why haven`t you seen them? Because Greyhawk is part of the Living Greyhawk
campaign now. It spans the entire world and has thousands of members who
are playing even as you think about playing. There are webpages,
sourcebooks, prestige classes, and all sorts of things being made for
Greyhawk every day.....and it is all FREE.

If you want to find out more, go to the WotC webpage and navigate to the
RPGA webpage and from there find the Living Greyhawk campaign links and you
are off and running on some EXTREMELY high quality work.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Atarikid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET>

Poorly written material does not sell. Gamers always say they would pay
money for a cheap, crappy copy of some long abandoned campaign setting, but
in truth, they wouldn`t. When a publisher begins to steadily put out lousy
material, just as TSR did toward the end of its life, it loses its
popularity. The 3rd Edition core books have been out for about 3 years now,
and have already outsold the 2nd Edition core books. Quality has a direct
bearing on popularity.

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. The only thing that is selling
extremely well is the FR setting. That is unavoidable, unfortunately. Has
anyone seen anymore Greyhawk material? Strange that since D&D 3e`s default
world is Greyhawk. Speaking of Quality in Core books, I have been
disappoited severely with the 3e Core books. The Manual of the Planes was
terrible. The Deities and Demigods smacked me as a munchin fest. I hate
the fact that they put stats on gods. No PC should be able to take on a god
and actually have such a good chance at victory that stats are needed. The
epic level handbook? I sold it 2 hours after I bought it. That the most
Uber Munchin Fest book I think I have ever read. It was like reading my
HackMaster books (well not exactly, I know HackMaster is ment to be a monty
haul filled joke. The book of Vile Darkness while different, was useless
in my games. I don`t tend to run high demonic/corruption plotlines.

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[AnakinMiller]

Hrmm... Living Greyhawk. I do concede that the quality in some of the
modules is high. My major complaint against the entire RPGA/Living Campaign
is that it only serves active con-hoppers.

I am myself a GM Certed RPGA Member, but I don`t go to cons or run "living
games" so I will never see any of the Greyhawk material. It seems to be
geared only to the RPGA members that participate. What about all the GH
fans that don`t participate in the RPGA? Is there a chance they will ever
even know the modules exist?

------------------------------------

I`ve been reading over the Alpha draft of the rules that the development
team has put together and for the most part I am enjoying what I am reading.

I do have some concerns but I will have to play test the new rules
extensively before I jump to any conclusions.

The major thing that is sticking out in my mind is contest. Is there any
reason you can now destroy a d3 levels per successful contest? While I
fully support the reasoning behind the rewrite, I personally feel destroying
1 level would be more sound. But then again I haven`t play tested this so I
do not know.

Btw, this is directed at Ian, Morg or anyone else on the design team.

Who got pegged as the sucker err... volunteer to write the southern coast
section for the new atlas of cerilia? I`m still plugging away on my PS of
Diemed and I would like to be able to pick at their brains and compare ideas
so my PS at least some what meshes with the Atlas of Cerilia version of the
Southern Coast.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Reynir]

See below

[Reynir]

No, actually, I downloaded the dos4gw.exe file an ran it and everything, but I still can't play other realms. Can you not ever do that? My program (dos4gw.exe) keeps having a fatal error.

I have Nova (the 1.4 patch program) running. But I still can't play other realms. No, actually, I think it isn't running, because it does the spiel about the what it is, then shuts off.

Please help me (before the Gorgon eats me).

[Birthright-L]

Apparently you are maybe a little out of touch with the RPGAs Living
Greyhawk situation. Membership is free now, and there is no such thing as a
certed game master. ALL of the modules are available for home play by
anyone who wants to order them and has passed the Herald Level Game Master
test on the RPGA webpage. Unfortunately you may only order modules set in
your region, meta-region, or Core Modules; but this still amounts to some
30+ modules.

If you go to the webpage and do some research, you will find that you can be
playing nearly a module a week and not run out in a year. Also, you can
still use the material...which is TOTALLY official....in any home game as
you feel the need; so have at it.

I haven`t been to a single convention yet and am already heavily involved in
the campaign. Only been playing my character for a month and he is already
a first level ranger and second level diviner. It is all up to you.

Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Atarikid <atarikid@CHARTER.NET>

Hrmm... Living Greyhawk. I do concede that the quality in some of the
modules is high. My major complaint against the entire RPGA/Living Campaign
is that it only serves active con-hoppers.

I am myself a GM Certed RPGA Member, but I don`t go to cons or run "living
games" so I will never see any of the Greyhawk material. It seems to be
geared only to the RPGA members that participate. What about all the GH
fans that don`t participate in the RPGA? Is there a chance they will ever
even know the modules exist?


-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Birthright-L]

Here here!
I support all of Anakin`s email...No dwarven monk/wizards, remove
planetouched, and forget psionics.

Keep Cerilia as Cerilia, and leave the Realms in the Realms.
Terence

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
Btw, this is directed at Ian, Morg or anyone else on the design team.

Who got pegged as the sucker err... volunteer to write the southern coast
section for the new atlas of cerilia? I`m still plugging away on my PS of
Diemed and I would like to be able to pick at their brains and compare ideas
so my PS at least some what meshes with the Atlas of Cerilia version of the
Southern Coast.

That would be me, at least for most of it. I've completed a draft for Roesone, and will be working on Medoere, Ilien, and possibly the others as well shortly (well, when I get a day to myself anyway).

If you have any idea/questions, or just want to compare notes, then e-mail me directly at hoss@chariot.net.au and ask away.

By the way, the realm descriptions in the atlas will be mini-PS type descriptions, each one with an expanded description and a bit more info on the history of the realm than the original books.

[Azrai]

I have big problems with your comment, AnakinMiller.

1. The fact that something sells good does not mean it has a high quality. The 3. Edition is a mass market product, it can not be compared to old TSR material.

2. The TSR stuff was'nt bad, only too much was published. Wizards learned from that and only took over the FR and Greyhawk setting. Thats bad for fans and bad for quality, because the taste of the masses is always low quality.

3. Manual of the Planes is a very good book, also DnDemigods.

Originally posted by AnakinMiller
But the growth that is being suggested does not remain true to the spirit of Birthright. What is being suggested is to add a bunch of garbage that needs to stay in the forgotten realms. I find no reason to allow Planetouched/Gensai/Minotaur/Gnoll/Saghauin/Monk/Gnome/Psionic PCs

Could you explain why? As long as these races exist in Cerila, I see no reason why the spirit of Birthright is in danger.

There are no psionics either...same reasoning

I agree.

Monks in Cerilia

Monks have absolutely NO place in Cerilia. There is not a single culture here that would create the Ki wielding mystic warriors. If you want to play a character that fights unarmed, then roll up a fighter and take unarmed fighting feats. It lets you play the concept of an unarmed warrior. You don`t get all the Ki and other "magic" monk abilities, but then again you shouldn`t. Sorry no Jackie Chan vs. The Black Knight.

You have no idea what a monk is. I has absolutely nothing to do with Bruce Lee. It is not connected to any oriental flair any more (only its origins). Modern fantasy literature use monks as normal middle age persons. Playing just a fighter would not be the same.

[AnakinMiller]

> 1. The fact that something sells good does not mean it >has a high
quality. The 3. Edition is a mass market >product, it can not be compared to
old TSR material.

I never claimed it could. I prefer 2e anyday to 3e.
-------------------
> 2. The TSR stuff was`nt bad, only too much was >published. Wizards
learned from that and only took over >the FR and Greyhawk setting. Thats bad
for fans and >bad for quality, because the taste of the masses is >always
low quality.

Where in the hell are you getting that I hate TSR? I prefered TSR to
Hasbro/Wizards any day.


> 3. Manual of the Planes is a very good book, also >DnDemigods.

Now here we can agree to disagree. I prefer the old 2e versions of the
books, but the 3e versions are a waste of $60.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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