Council of Dukes

[Kalien]

In response to Ryan's plea for more non-mechanic discussions I thought I'd float the idea I had for the Anuirean PBEM I'm currently planning. (Please note that while expressions of interest are welcome the game won't start for at least another 2-3 months).

The basic premise is: In the years after the fall of Roele and the breakdown of centralised authority, Anuire descended into a period of chaos and anarchy as regents strove to enhance their personal position and power. Realms (and rival domains) engaged in prolonged struggle that only served to weaken all and leave Anuire vulnerable to outside enemies.

In (insert undetermined year) the Gorgon, seizing upon internal strife and an atmosphere of distrust, launched an invasion of Anuire, seeking to claim by force what he had always considered to be his rightful birthright. His armies swept through much of Anuire, causing widespread devastation and loss, as, one after another, individual realms were slow to respond or cooperate effectively in common defence. Distrust and personal rivalry among Anuire's regents were too prevalent to be easily overcome. Realms fell and were occupied, their people effectively enslaved under Raesene's iron rule.

Eventually, the remaining free regents and realms realised that if they were ever to drive the Gorgon from Anuire they had to set aside their differences for the greater good. Hard lessons on the battlefield soon taught them that setting aside differences was not enough, they needed to pool resources under a unified banner and command. Yet only one figure possessed sufficient power and prestige to command loyalty and obedience - and that figure had perished with the death of Michael Roele. With no single regent commanding sufficient respect and power to claim the office of the Anuirean Emperor, the remaining Dukes decided they would select one from among their number to ascend to the Imperial Throne in their hour of need. That person would rule for life (under some constraints to their power) whereupon a new Emperor would be elected for life by Anuire's ruling Dukes.

Eventually, after many hard-won battles the Gorgon's armies were defeated and driven from Anuire. (Quite some time ago Kenneth posted a very good argument as to why the Gorgon hasn't successfully invaded Anuire which I am going to use in this game. If anyone wants, please let me know and I'll repost it.) For the purposes of background, the point is that under a newly elected Emperor the Anuireans eventually drove the Gorgon's forces from Anuire.

The first Anuirean Emperor after the fall of Roele was of the line of Avan. The second from the line of Boeruine. (This was a compromise, Boeruine accepted Avan as the first Emperor, provided that he, or his heir, would succeed him). The game will start immediately following the death of the current Emperor, with players vying to sit the throne - or to sit someone they prefer upon the throne.

The Emperor is elected by a vote among the rulers of what were the 12 original Duchies. These 'electors' are collectively referred to as the Council of Dukes. The Emperor requires a two-thirds majority to ascend to the throne - in addition to recognition by the Imperial Chamberlain (I envisage this to have become something of a formality by 550 MR) and investiture by the Church of Haelyn.

Of course, with Ghoere having unified Ghieste and Dhalaene there will only be eleven members. This means there is room for one other realm to have itself raised to the Council of Dukes during game play.

At some point I will start to write up a background timeline for the setting. Before I do that I thought I'd see if anyone had ideas about what I could perhaps include in the background to flesh things out more - whether campaign history or current politics as the game gets underway. Any ideas would be welcomed, whether they deal with who should sit on the Council of Dukes, who might have been the recently deceased emperor, any historical deeds by previous emperors, powers the emperor might have, etc. Anything and everything will be welcomed. :)

[Urulòki]

Then if I understood well the new Imperial system, Anuire should soon look like the Holy Empire from the XII-XIII centuries. Where the Imperial Electors had to choose among themselves the Emperor while the current Emperor attempted to associate his own House to the Throne. This could be find.

On the other hand this election could bring back to the Roman Empire if an Emperor managed to build a true Imperial Army which then could become a new political power and decide alone who had to be Emperor.

I think that some things should be clearly written such as the Imperial Army and her statute (a Feodal host or not), the strongholds of this army, and the Imperial Domain (if there is one) ruled by the Emperor... There are a lot of things to work out now that Emperors are back.:)

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Kalien wrote:
> With no single regent commanding sufficient respect and power to claim
> the office of the Anuirean Emperor, the remaining Dukes decided they
> would select one from among their number to ascend to the Imperial
> Throne in their hour of need. That person would rule for life (under
> some constraints to their power) whereupon a new Emperor would be
> elected for life by Anuire`s ruling Dukes.

So, my campaign notebook is still on my desk in my apartment, you couldn`t
have "borrowed" it, so you must have perfected that mind-reading via TCP
you were working on. :)

> Eventually, after many hard-won battles the Gorgon`s armies were
> defeated and driven from Anuire. (Quite some time ago Kenneth posted a
> very good argument as to why the Gorgon hasn`t successfully invaded
> Anuire which I am going to use in this game. If anyone wants, please
> let me know and I`ll repost it.)

Which one was that?

> The Emperor is elected by a vote among the rulers of what were the 12
> original Duchies. These `electors` are collectively referred to as
> the Council of Dukes. The Emperor requires a two-thirds majority to
> ascend to the throne - in addition to recognition by the Imperial
> Chamberlain (I envisage this to have become something of a formality by
> 550 MR) and investiture by the Church of Haelyn.
>
> Of course, with Ghoere having unified Ghieste and Dhalaene there will
> only be eleven members. This means there is room for one other realm to
> have itself raised to the Council of Dukes during game play.

So you`ve got Avanil, Boeruine, and Ghoere for sure. Mhoried, Elinie,
Diemed, Osoerde, Brosengae probably, that`s 7. You`re left with some good
plot devices:

-Who gets the Alamien vote, or did they admit them both? If not, was the
other "duke" from old Alamie demoted to Marquis or the equivalent?

-Did Aerenwe join this mess, or remain a separate Kingdom?

-Did the Cariele Dukedom move to Coeranys with the family, or stay in
Cariele with the land?

-Who gets the vote for Osoerde? It would be swell if Raenech held the
land, but William Moergan`s proxy was still in the Imperial City to vote
for him.

-Is Gavin Tael demanding two votes? He holds two old Duchies, after all.

-Avanil, Boeruine, Diemed, Alamie, Brosengae, Mhoried, Elinie, Osoerde,
Aerenwe, Cariele, Ghieste, Bhalane. That`s 12.

That leaves Roesone, Ilien, Medoere, Endier, Taeghas, Talinie, Dhoesone,
Mieres, either Alamie or Tuornen, and either Coeranys or Cariele without a
vote, but in the Empire. Several of these are bigger and more powerful
than current Duchies, are they demanding votes? The current Dukes won`t
want to give up power that way.

-Which temple represents the Church of Haelyn and invests the new Emperor?
If it`s the OIT, the cantidate may have to convert to get their approval.
If it`s the WIT, everybody cries foul :) If it`s supposed to be one, but
they won`t do it, the Emperor may just go to another to get his crown.

-Which foreign nations have embassies in the capitol now? At least Muden,
Tuarhievel, Baruk-Azhik, and Ariya I suspect. What`s that old colony in
Khinasi, Suiriene? They might be applying for readmittance, especially if
the Serpent or Magian is breathing down their neck. An ambassador from
Rovninodensk or the Gorgon would be wonderful.

> At some point I will start to write up a background timeline for the
> setting. Before I do that I thought I`d see if anyone had ideas about
> what I could perhaps include in the background to flesh things out more
> - whether campaign history or current politics as the game gets
> underway. Any ideas would be welcomed, whether they deal with who
> should sit on the Council of Dukes, who might have been the recently
> deceased emperor, any historical deeds by previous emperors, powers the
> emperor might have, etc. Anything and everything will be welcomed. :)

The electors would jealously guard their privileges, and the Emperor would
pretty much have to put up with it. Everybody else gets rather less
preferential treatment. The Dukes might have their own small standing
armies, no one else can, though everyone will contribute gold and RP that
the Emperor uses to maintain the Imperial army and navy.

Courts should end up at the Ducal level, and the Emperor can`t arbitrarily
overrule a Duke`s judgement, he needs the support of 2/3 the electors to
do so. Lands that aren`t under Dukes answer directly to the Emperor
though.

Look at some of the elections of Holy Roman Emperors. The amount of
bribery that went on was staggering. There were 7 electors there, and
each of them saw the election as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to
enrich themselves, basically.
--
Daniel McSorley

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[ConjurerDragon]

Daniel McSorley schrieb:

>That leaves Roesone, Ilien, Medoere, Endier, Taeghas, Talinie, Dhoesone,
>Mieres, either Alamie or Tuornen, and either Coeranys or Cariele without a
>vote, but in the Empire. Several of these are bigger and more powerful
>than current Duchies, are they demanding votes? The current Dukes won`t
>want to give up power that way.
>
Which reminds me of the situation in Germany during the 30 years war,
when Bajuvaria (Bayern) desired a vote and finally got it when the
emperor gave the vote and land of the Palatinate to them for their aid...
bye
Michael

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 1:38 PM


> > (Quite some time ago Kenneth posted a very good argument as to why
> > the Gorgon hasn`t successfully invaded Anuire which I am going to use
> > in this game. If anyone wants, please let me know and I`ll repost it.)
>
> Which one was that?

My own guess is my December 8, 2002 post under the subject Strongest Army,
which is recorded on the boards under thread [2#1139].

> -Who gets the vote for Osoerde? It would be swell if Raenech held the
> land, but William Moergan`s proxy was still in the Imperial City to vote
> for him.

Doing so would put the weight of Imperial recognition behind Moergan, which
would mean that any reconsitition of the Empire would require war with
Osoerde. Such institutions generally don`t try to line up enemies. I`d
imagine they`d accept Raenech`s proxy while giving meaningless lip service
to Moergan`s alternate claim.

> That leaves Roesone, Ilien, Medoere, Endier, Taeghas, Talinie, Dhoesone,
> Mieres, either Alamie or Tuornen, and either Coeranys or Cariele without a
> vote, but in the Empire. Several of these are bigger and more powerful
> than current Duchies, are they demanding votes? The current Dukes won`t
> want to give up power that way.

Represenation in older (monarchial) theories of government isn`t direct. I
represent you because I was placed here by larger divine/historical forces.
I act in your name without any need to consult with you either formally or
informally. In practice there was always informal consultation, and
sometimes even formal consultation, but the prevailing theory was that this
was unneccesary. The duke rules because he is duke, not because he was
elected, and the duke votes for Emperor because he is duke, not because he
was selected by the counts and barons in the neighborhood.

> If it`s the OIT, the cantidate may have to convert to get their approval.

I don`t think one has to convert from one Haelynite sect to another. I
rather think they all prefer the fiction of one united temple.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 2:45 PM

> Which reminds me of the situation in Germany during the 30 years war,
> when Bajuvaria (Bayern) desired a vote and finally got it when the
> emperor gave the vote and land of the Palatinate to them for their aid...

That`s the wrong side of this story. What actually happened is that the
Elector of the Palatinate (a Calvinist) started the 30 Years War by
accepting the Bohemian crown when Bohemian Protestants decided to ditch the
Habsburgs, who had abandon their Erasmian tolerance for Counter-Revolutonary
zeal under Ferdinand II. This is the Bohemian phase of the War (1618-1620)
the Habsburgs, along with its allies in the Catholic League put down the
rebellion (from the Habsburg perspective) and eliminated the elective nature
of the Bohemian crown, making it hereditary.

Second, what to do with the Calvinist Palatinate? They were stripped of
their Electoral dignity, but then who to give it too? Why, how about their
closest non-Calvinst relatives, who happen to be the dukes of Bavaria and
leaders of the Catholic League? If some other Catholic prince had been the
heir of the Palatinate, they would have gotten the Electoral dignity,
irrespective of Bavaria`s contributions to the war during the Bohemian
phase, or later.

You just can`t move Imperial dignities around by whim, the Empire was too
German for that, and that meant everything was heritable. Even the
important offices of the crown, Chancellor, Treasurer, Cup Bearer, all
heritable. One of the reasons the Habsburgs began to run the Empire through
Vienna and their own bureaucracy rather than the Imperial bureaucracy was
that they could have some influence in who sat in the Habsburg bureaucracy
and had absolutly none in the Imperial one.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Dan McSorely says:
> So, my campaign notebook is still on my desk in my apartment,
> you couldn`t have "borrowed" it, so you must have perfected
> that mind-reading via TCP you were working on. :)

Yeah Dan, you aren`t the only one who should invest in tinfoil hats it
seems.
*eyes Kalien suspiciously*
I suppose we shouldn`t be too surprised from someone who calls himself
`Kalien` though...

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Kenneth says:
> I don`t think one has to convert from one Haelynite sect to
> another. I rather think they all prefer the fiction of one
> united temple.

Although any Emperor should certainly choose his spiritual advisor
carefully, since the various factions within the `Imperial Temple` will
be watching. In my version of this scenario a brief period of relative
unity on the part of the temples of Haelyn inspires the whole
proecedure, although things break down within a few generations.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Kalien]

Originally posted by Trithemius
*eyes Kalien suspiciously*
I suppose we shouldn`t be too surprised from someone who calls himself `Kalien` though...

Hey, I resemble that remark! ;)

Now, to address more relevant concerns ...

Originally posted by Urulòki
Then if I understood well the new Imperial system, Anuire should soon look like the Holy Empire from the XII-XIII centuries. Where the Imperial Electors had to choose among themselves the Emperor while the current Emperor attempted to associate his own House to the Throne. This could be find.

On the other hand this election could bring back to the Roman Empire if an Emperor managed to build a true Imperial Army which then could become a new political power and decide alone who had to be Emperor.

I was thinking more of the Holy Roman Empire and the Imperial Electors, though there could well be some Roman influences introduced. Lawgiver and I talked about Colleen McCullough's novel series dealing with late Republican Rome on Morg's boards during CoGII - they're a great source of inspiration.

I had written up an initial plan detailing just what powers the Emperor would have in the game (though the game won't have an emperor in power, the point of the game is to see who becomes emperor), together with the powers of the electors, and the powers of any other power bodies. I just regained access to all that information yesterday, only to find that it's all been corrupted and I can't open any of my files.

Sigh.

Back to the drawing board. (And I'd re-written all the Anuirean realms and domains, blood abilities, BR specific classes, was half way through domain action rules, plus lots more. That's all gone too.).

[Kalien]

Just a note to say that I'm going to break replies to all of Dan's points into separate posts. I'm hoping by separating out issues I'll get better focus ... or something like that anyway :)

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
So, my campaign notebook is still on my desk in my apartment, you couldn`t
have "borrowed" it, so you must have perfected that mind-reading via TCP
you were working on. :)

*I have my ways ... *

> Eventually, after many hard-won battles the Gorgon`s armies were
> defeated and driven from Anuire. (Quite some time ago Kenneth posted a
> very good argument as to why the Gorgon hasn`t successfully invaded
> Anuire which I am going to use in this game. If anyone wants, please
> let me know and I`ll repost it.)

Which one was that?

I'll repost it here then deal with your points in another post, Dan. It starts off with Kenneth replying to a query about what stops Raesene conquering Anuire. Just bear in mind that these are Kenneth's thoughts, not mine. (I wish they were mine though ... ). I will certainly be using these ideas as part of my campaign background.

> What stops Gorgon from conquering Anuire? Isn't it what he desires?

It's the Gorgon against the world. Them's stiff odds, even for a nearly immortal being. Plus, the Gorgon has trained the world to be vigilant against him. If any serious move is made against any realm, the world has been pretty good about resisting en mass. Obviously some occasions have arisen in which the world has not gotten together (and by world I just mean a force sufficient to repel the Gorgon). Kiergard is the most recent example. But as we know, once bitten is twice shy, so Kiergard acts as just the most recent reminder of why vigilance and unity in the face of the Gorgon is so critical.

Further, actual conquest is hard. It's much harder than victory. For one thing, it requires a fairly long period of occupation. The standard rules, esp. as expressed in the computer game, don't reflect this well. The peasants might not have a great deal of interest over whether they are governed by Ghoere or Mhoried, but I'm reasonably sure they certainly don't want to be subjects of the Gorgon. The one place where the rules really support something like this is in the Rebellion rules on p.48. A province in rebellion puts all holdings into a virtual state of contest. You can't rule contested holdings up, and ruling them out of contest is meaningless because if the province is still in rebellion (or will fall back momentarily) they're contested again.

In terms of random events, recently conquered areas are subject to Assassination, Feud, Corruption or Crime, Brigandage, Intrigue, Unrest Or Rebellion, Matter of Justice, and Great Captain. Let examine each one Of these in the specific context of a province recently conquered by the Gorgon.

Assassination: This is the resistance against the Gorgon in action. The attempt is almost certainly made against a key lieutenant rather than the Gorgon himself, but it's a pain in the neck none the less. If it's unresolved, the lieutenant could be killed, forcing the Gorgon to send In someone from the bench.

Feud: The obvious issue hear is a conflict between companies of troops. Perhaps the dwarves and orogs have come to blows. Or humans and gnolls. Perhaps its just two human companies fighting over spoils. Maybe a personal rivalry between captains. The struggle within the Gorgon's organization cost him one level of a law holding (if he's begun to build them) and he's got to deal with the conflict in his own ranks. This could even cost him regency.

Corruption or Crime: The text on this one certainly applies to conquered territory. Its a case of the Gorgon's underlings taking too great a portion of the spoils, to the point here it costs the Gorgon. Maybe he thinks it's a cost of doing business of this kind, maybe he kills the offender with that officer's replacement as an afterthought. Either way, doesn't make the job easier.

Brigandage: Troops in conquered territory are liable to this, a lower level talking to great of the spoils. Of course this can also be raids of displaced locals coming back to burn and destroy their former stuff before it can be used for greater evil. It could be a small as tying down a unit, to causing a loss in income of 1d6 GB. If left unresolved, it's supposed to be a major loss of regency. Though given the Gorgon's policies, that's probably not appropriate. He's not out to protect his people. Still that may just be another price to pay for being against the land's will.

Intrigue: Good help is hard to find. Its one of the reasons that the Gorgon culls his staff every decade or so. Giving them actual responsibility just invites their disloyalty.

Unrest or Rebellion: A serious problem for the prospective conqueror. The residents want their old ruler back. Or maybe just anyone but the Gorgon. In any event, loyalty drops and the Gorgon has to expend an action to resolve it. Such an event could assist former rulers who are fomenting rebellion.

Matter of Justice: A people occupied by the Gorgon certainly have grievances. Of course its manifest more in the form of a rebellion than in a polite petition, but it still has the risk of reducing loyalty one grade in the whole realm (defined as a territory with similar sentiments). If the Gorgon gets this event in Kiergard, one can say that Brand Mournsinger Has rallied the people with some declaration or word has spread of a meeting of Kiergard's true nobles. Hope in a restoration or just hatred for the Gorgon results in conundrum from the Gorgon. He can do they benevolent tyrant thing and release a few prisoners, grant mercy to capital cases, relax his iron grip a bit and take the bloodline hit, or more likely, suffer the loyalty hit. In a newly conquered province or provinces this would likewise reflect a resistance declaration, hope for restoration or hatred of the Gorgon, and again a probable loyalty grade reduction for all concerned provinces.

Great Captain: This comes from outside the Gorgon's organization. It's A spontaneous creation of a serious leader of the resistance. A charismatic hero has come to defend the populous. A conquered province suddenly sees its law holding crushed by the hero who suddenly gains a similar law holding himself. Robin Hood has removed the Sheriff of Nottingham. The hero could cause the rebellion to spread. Every turn the leader is out and about; he gains another holding or province. The Gorgon can't win the hero over, so assassination, capture, or military action is needed.

In addition to all of this headache, a gigantic pool of regency and actions are out there to foment problems and resistance in any new conquests. Consider this tactic. The Gorgon has taken Marloer's Gap and Dhalsiel. The Mhor, Haelyn's Aegis, Erik's Oaken Grove, and the Maesil Shippers have a hardened holding each. By hardened I mean it may be a secret holding, it may be fortified, it may be hiding out in "Sherwood Forest". A holding is people, not structures, so the key people of the holding still have a bond with the people and are still operating in the province. Haelyn's Aegis and Erik's Oaken Grove use their free Agitate actions to keep the province In rebellion. Maesil Shippers uses its free Espionage action to stir up trouble for the Gorgon's occupation force. The Mhor and other rulers contest any Gorgon friendly holdings preventing practical conquest from taking place. Eventually the Gorgon regards these provinces as such a drain on his pool of men, GB's, and RP's, that he just abandons them.

It's easy for him to march anywhere and defeat any one army, or any number of armies in succession. Its holding land that is the problem. To hold land he needs to reduce the power of the rulers most able to resist him. Basically all the rulers in Mhoried, Ghoere, and Elinie, both landed and holding, need to have their base of support cut out from under them. The problem is, the Gorgon can't do it himself. If the Gorgon were to rampage around in central Anuire, pillaging and destroying, first he'd see the southern and western coasts build up armies to contest him. Second, the longer it took for him to weaken the centre, the more likely that the nobles and rulers of Anuire would decided that it was time to put differences aside and recognize Darien Avan as Emperor, with Aeric Boeruine as Chancellor, Heirl Diem as Steward, and Gavin Tael as Marshal.

So, the Gorgon tries to set the nobles off against one another so that They weaken each other. He's outsourced the destruction to the rulers themselves. Depending on how much you imagine they pillage one another, this may or may not be working. The Gorgon would like to hope that so much bad blood passes between the rulers of Anuire that if he were to go on the offensive it would take so long to organize a concerted resistance, and that coalition would be so shaky that it would not amount to a unified resistance. But, obviously, all of this has not come to pass.