Chap 1 revision (7-04)

[irdeggman]

All right I think I've gotten everything in here now, except for the magician class.

What I'd like to do is have everyone look this over and comment on this thread. I'll close the other related ones, so everyone is talking about the same thing.

We'll keep discussion of the magician class on its own thread for now.

In a couple of week I want to try to get to a series of partial sanctioning votes on this chapter. One for races, classes (except for magician), skills and feats, and equipment.

Here is the word version, I'll post the pdf one after I get home today.

[irdeggman]

Here is the pdf version.

[Athos69]

Comments

Skills:
I like how each specific use of the skill is set out as a seperate paragraph, and faced in italics. It makes it stand out when one is quickly looking for info.

Perhaps we should include a reference table in the chapter for which skills give synergy bonuses to other skills, as on page 66 of the PHB 3.5 (Table 4-5: Skill Synergies). Also, we may want to consider yet another table summarizing all of the potential bonuses to Domain Actions as a quick reference.

Lead: "Your skill allows you to sway public opinion with your inspiring rhetoric. You may attempt to perform agitate as a free action by making a small number of speeches and inspiring the masses. You do not need to have a holding in the province (or provinces) in which you perform the agitate action, but you must be physically present." There are no 'free' actions in the domain level of play. Is this a Court or a Character action?

Feats:
Only a few questions and suggestions here.

Dwarven Artisan: Since the 'Master' level feats require 9 ranks, should this not also be dropped to 9?

Elven Artisan: Only 1 rank in any Craft skill as a prerequisite? I'm assuming this was a typo and supposed to be 10. If so, same comment about Dwarven Artisan.

Leadership: "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score." I would rewrite this as "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score and character level." This removes abiguity for characters who have high leadership scores and low character levels.

Equpment:

Table 1-9: Melee Weapon Availability: I believe that we had intended to include the Dwarven Urgosh in this list.

Table 1-11: Armour Availability: missing shading on alternate lines in the PDF version, but has shaded line on first line.

Overall:
I would change the reference number of Table 1-1, and move it to a position within the Feats section -- it always looked awkward to have it in at the beginning of the chapter, when most referencing to it would be done from the Feats section.

[irdeggman]

Good comments.

Perhaps we should include a reference table in the chapter for which skills give synergy bonuses to other skills, as on page 66 of the PHB 3.5 (Table 4-5: Skill Synergies). Also, we may want to consider yet another table summarizing all of the potential bonuses to Domain Actions as a quick reference.

Arghh, you're killing me. Good point though

Lead: "Your skill allows you to sway public opinion with your inspiring rhetoric. You may attempt to perform agitate as a free action by making a small number of speeches and inspiring the masses. You do not need to have a holding in the province (or provinces) in which you perform the agitate action, but you must be physically present." There are no 'free' actions in the domain level of play. Is this a Court or a Character action?

Actually this was intended to be a free action performed as part of another action not a separate action, i.e., not taking up a character or court action in itself. Probably needs some clarification.

Dwarven Artisan: Since the 'Master' level feats require 9 ranks, should this not also be dropped to 9?

Elven Artisan: Only 1 rank in any Craft skill as a prerequisite? I'm assuming this was a typo and supposed to be 10. If so, same comment about Dwarven Artisan.

Again good comment

Leadership: "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score." I would rewrite this as "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score and character level." This removes abiguity for characters who have high leadership scores and low character levels.

Actually the character level was removed from this for a reason. There are variants that could be used (see Chap 8) that allow a higher application of with regard to character level. But I can change this if people feel it is better to use the level must be less than the character from the the Leadership feat. Feedback from the masses please.

Table 1-9: Melee Weapon Availability: I believe that we had intended to include the Dwarven Urgosh in this list.

Aha got you. It is item 4 on the list already

Table 1-11: Armour Availability: missing shading on alternate lines in the PDF version, but has shaded line on first line.

good point

Overall:
I would change the reference number of Table 1-1, and move it to a position within the Feats section -- it always looked awkward to have it in at the beginning of the chapter, when most referencing to it would be done from the Feats section

Let's see what others want, before I start to move things around too much.

Thanks for the comments and promptness of them.

[Osprey]

Actually the character level was removed from this for a reason. There are variants that could be used (see Chap 8) that allow a higher application of with regard to character level. But I can change this if people feel it is better to use the level must be less than the character from the the Leadership feat. Feedback from the masses please.

I like military cohorts being specifically dependent on Leadership score rather than level. Units vs. henchmen are 2 very different animals, and don't need to be treated identically. This allows those with high Charisma (like high-level nobles), Great Leader, and the like to attract large numbers of loyal troops, which seems appropriate for BR.

Osprey

[Athos69]

Thanks Duane. I'm not trying to kill you -- just doing what I do best and proofreading what I see.

Leadership: "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score." I would rewrite this as "The total GB muster value of the units in a military cohort may never exceed the cohort level appropriate for your leadership score and character level." This removes abiguity for characters who have high leadership scores and low character levels.

Actually the character level was removed from this for a reason. There are variants that could be used (see Chap 8) that allow a higher application of with regard to character level. But I can change this if people feel it is better to use the level must be less than the character from the the Leadership feat. Feedback from the masses please.

I must have missed that set of commentary then. I retract my original comment on this point, but would like to make another.

There should also be a short paragraph then outlining which modifiers apply in the Birthright world (p. 106, DMG 3.5). For example, does a landed Regent automatically get the Great Renown modifier? Do Blooded Scions automatically get the Special Power modifier, or is this to be completely ignored in favour of the Leadership score bonuses presented in the Scion Class (Chapter 2 Sanctioned)?

Table 1-9: Melee Weapon Availability: I believe that we had intended to include the Dwarven Urgosh in this list.

Aha got you. It is item 4 on the list already

But by adding the Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Urgosh to the table, you now have 2 entries of Dwarven Waraxe. (The second one is listed as Waraxe, Dwarven.) I would favour the usage of 'Urgosh, Dwarven', to match the PHB.

Thanks for the comments and promptness of them.

My pleasure to assist, Duane. Kinda Ironic that I had just managed to get back online after an entire weekend off, and had my commentary ready to go in an hour...

[Osprey]

Found a major typo:

Master Diplomat [General]
You are a master of diplomacy.
Regions: Anuire, Brechtür, Khinasi
Prerequisites: Diplomacy 9 ranks
Benefits: You gain a +2 bonus to Appraise and Profession (Merchant) skill checks, and a +2 bonus to any domain actions related to trade and finance. These include Create and Contest Trade Routes, and Create, Contest, and Rule Guild Holdings.

Somehow the description for Master Merchant got mixed in here. Should be:

Master Diplomat
Regions: Anuire, Brechtur, Khinasi
Prerequisites: Diplomacy 9 ranks
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy skill checks, and to all Diplomacy-based domain actions. These include Diplomacy, Create Trade Route, Contest Trade Route, and Create, Contest, and Rule Temple Holdings.

Osprey

[Athos69]

Damn Osprey, I missed that one. Looks like I'll have to go back and comb through it looking for other mixups again....

Good catch!

[irdeggman]

Thanks Duane. I'm not trying to kill you --

No, I think you are all out to get me. (Leans over shoulder) "What's that? Yes, they are all wicked and vile creatures. We should destroy them" :lol:

There should also be a short paragraph then outlining which modifiers apply in the Birthright world (p. 106, DMG 3.5). For example, does a landed Regent automatically get the Great Renown modifier? Do Blooded Scions automatically get the Special Power modifier, or is this to be completely ignored in favour of the Leadership score bonuses presented in the Scion Class (Chapter 2 Sanctioned)?

I thought about that (listing which ones in the DMG apply and when) but decided that would be too cumbersome and restricting for the DM. The modifiers in the DMG are all subjective (as viewed by the particular cohort being recruited) and hence are governed by the DM (and should be). The modifers listed in Chap 2 and for the noble class and great leader feat are all 'extra' bonuses that are due to those things andhave no subjectivity associated with them at all.

Chap 8 gives some examples of things that can be used under the various variants pertaining to leadership and cohorts (or Lts).

[Athos69]

OK a few more things then...

Page 9: Bards.

The paragraphs are all a bit shattered...

...are members of one of these colleges. By tradition, members of bardic colleges are free to come and go from human lands as they please. Colleges insure this
The bards of Cerilia are practitioners of lesser arcane magic. Their arcane lore is not based upon the...

The missing lines are at the top of the next column both above and bleow Table 1-1.

Paladins of Moradin:
I would move the summoning of a small elemental into the main description as opposed to having it as a variant. Dwarves do not have Cavalry, so having a mount would not fit in the Dwarven culture.

Knowledge:
Were we not going to be using K/Regional and K/Local, as well as differentiating between them in the scope?

Elven Voice:
Is 1 rank of Perform (singing) really the only skill prerequsite? I should think that it would be higher.

Master Merchant:
Add "These include Create and Contest Trade Routes, and Create, Contest, and Rule Guild Holdings." to the end of the description.

Master of the Arcane:
"You are a master of arcane trade and merchandise." doesn't make sense. I would rewrite it as: "You are known for your vast knowledge of matters arcane."

Spellsong Mastery:
If Perform (singing) is a prerequsite of Elven Voice, and Elven Voice is a prerequsite of this feat, unless this has a higher skill requirement, we don't newed to list the skill as a prerequisite for this feat.

Wilderness Savant:
I'd alter the description slightly to: "Your knowledge of flora, fauna, rock and stream puts many druids to shame." This would emphasize the fact that the Feat is knowledge based, as opposed to exerting your influence over nature.

Vos Warspear:
"The cruel barbs of this spear are designed to embed deeply in flesh, causing the Vos war spear to inflict cruel hits." doesn't scan well -- I think it's the repetition of the word cruel. I'd change the first instance of that word to 'backwards-pointing' to not only give a physical description, but to also explain why the hits (and wounds) are cruel.

There -- That's me ging through with a fine-toothed comb. I did not touch the Magician or Noble sections, since the Magician is still being worked on, and the Noble is complete and pretty much vetted already.