Dwarfs and Peaceful Coexistence...

[gazza666]

Dwarfs (and other intelligent species that tend to live underground, such as goblins) can presumably become regents of underground realms in Cerilia. Can underground provinces coexist with above ground provinces, or are provinces more "2 dimensional" with regard to exclusivity?

[Arjan]

Well in one of the pbem games i played in we did alow it, (dwarfs were allowed to create underground provinces under thuarhievel ^^) and i dont see a reason why it cant?
if the soil somewhat allows it though (kinda hard to create an underground province in a swamp)

[DanMcSorley]

On 8/11/06, gazza666 <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> gazza666 wrote:
> Dwarfs (and other intelligent species that tend to live underground, such as goblins) can presumably become regents of underground realms in Cerilia. Can underground provinces coexist with above ground provinces, or are provinces more "2 dimensional" with regard to exclusivity?

The original rules of the game did not provide for this. If you think
it`s fun, go for it. You`ll might want to rejigger the various
dwarven, goblin, and orog realms so that they don`t disproportionately
gain power from this (you`ve effectively doubled their province count,
after all). You should probably flatly disallow humans and elves from
doing this, because someone attempting to game the system would
rapidly do a bunch of "create underground province" actions and double
their province count.

Additional province regions that might be possible include:
Undersea provinces inhabited by mermen, various other aquatic races,
dolphin/cetacean kingdoms, sea elves, and possibly Masetians
transformed by Deismaar.
Shadow world realms populated by dark sidhe, halflings, undead
kingdoms, and an evil mirror of the Anuirean empire run by the Cold
Rider or some awnsheghlien.
Adurian provinces inhabited by wemics, yuan-ti, yak-men, minotaurs,
orcs, and other strange beastmen, the descendants of adurian forces
not protected by their gods at Deismaar.
Strange undiscovered continents populated by dragons, elves, dwarves,
gnomes, halflings, other men, or whoever you feel like sticking there.
I ran a great game featuring exploration west past the Sea of Storms,
with Anuirean, Rjurik, and Brecht colonists racing to settle this
strange new continent.
--
Daniel McSorley

[irdeggman]

Also how would you then handle the source potential? Is it doubled? One source potential for the surface and another one for below ground.

[irdeggman]

Goblins also don't "tend" to live underground. Straight MM gobliins can live anywhere and aren't placed into preferential terrains.

The provinces that they rule in Cerilia are above ground - only orogs and dwarves have large underground settlements.

[DanMcSorley]

On 8/11/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> irdeggman wrote:
> Also how would you then handle the source potential? Is it doubled? One source potential for the surface and another one for below ground.

Sources tend to be associated with ancient natural growth and
structures. An old growth forest, mountains, waterfalls, that kind of
thing. Underground provinces will have next to none of this; almost
all living space underground has to be excavated. I`d probably put an
underground provice at maximum source of 1 or 2, reduced normally by
population.
--
Daniel McSorley

[DanMcSorley]

On 8/11/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> irdeggman wrote:
> Goblins also don`t "tend" to live underground. Straight MM gobliins can live anywhere and aren`t placed into preferential terrains.
>
> The provinces that they rule in Cerilia are above ground - only orogs and dwarves have large underground settlements.

Goblins in BR are noted diggers. I`m forgetting the name right now,
but there`s a goblin kingdom in SW Vosgaard which is monumentally
tunnelled and excavated. That may be mostly for defense
(fortifications and troop-roads), but there`s good indication it is
used as living space as well.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Arjan]

Also how would you then handle the source potential? Is it doubled? One source potential for the surface and another one for below ground.

well the variant rules were for dwarf only

Create Underground Province
Success: 20+
Type: Domain
Base Cost: 15 GB

To attempt this action, the Dwarven king must have first mustered a special kind of unit: Escavation Engineers (Muster: 8 GB, Maintenance: 3GB, Move:1, Defense: 2, Melee: 1, can appear in any square of the battlefield and can hide underground after 2 battle rounds of work). Digging proceeds at 1d6 GB per turn and the province is complete when the full 15 GB have been paid. Failure means that the dwarves were not able to find a suitable place to build an underground city, but the tunnels make easier for a new try (+ 3 to the next action, cumulative) in the same place. However, a result of 1 means disaster. All previous work is lost as the tunnels cave in, the engineers die underground, too deep to be saved.

but if I would have been the DM, i would ADD the province lvls, meaning for each underground prov lvl it takes away one source lvl.

i dont have an opinion about max province lvls on this subject though. really depends on the location and situation though

[irdeggman]

On 8/11/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> irdeggman wrote:
> Goblins also don`t "tend" to live underground. Straight MM gobliins can live anywhere and aren`t placed into preferential terrains.
>
> The provinces that they rule in Cerilia are above ground - only orogs and dwarves have large underground settlements.

Goblins in BR are noted diggers. I`m forgetting the name right now,
but there`s a goblin kingdom in SW Vosgaard which is monumentally
tunnelled and excavated. That may be mostly for defense
(fortifications and troop-roads), but there`s good indication it is
used as living space as well.

--
Daniel McSorley

Are you sure about this noted diggers thing? I don't recall that.

I would equate the underground tunnels in Vosgaard to the underground sharing of dwarven and human shelter in the Havens of the Great Bay - basically a survival thing and not an indication of what the race is noted for.

The Spider Fell and Thurazor are both above ground and in forested areas.

Markazor is know for mining, but that doesn't mean the goblins live underground like the dwarves do. It just says they have small communitys and no large cities.

Lal Kalathor is the kingdom in Vosgaard and it does talk about the tunnels - but it also talks about how the goblins fled theri to avoid extinction from wars.

Urga-zai (Rjurik Highlands) is likewise above ground.

[DanMcSorley]

On 8/11/06, irdeggman <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> Are you sure about this noted diggers thing? I don`t recall that.

I`m probably overgeneralizing from Kal Kalathor and hazy recollections
about goblin mining.

If you`re going to be running a game featuring underground provinces,
goblins are a natural group to have, though. Darkvision, for one
thing. If you don`t have goblins, or some other group, then the whole
underground is basically dwarves and orogs, and adding other groups
lends some extra political interplay to the underground that could be
fun. Goblins in Cerilia aren`t all THAT awful, after all- they have
organized countries and trade with their neighbors. Maybe the dwarves
could ally with them to fight orogs, though you never know when the
little blighters will turn on you.

An underground game would also need underground awnsheghlien. The
Lurking Horror, the Tunneller, the Cloaker, the Aboleth, the Illithid.
Lots of iconic D&D monsters that could be turned into freaky, scared
of the sunlight, underground-living Azrai bloods.

--
Daniel McSorley