Birthright societies and law.

[graham anderson]

I might have some time over christmas away from tv's and computers as well as work so I might do some writing and I was thinking about maybe doing a bit on the societies around cerilia. I might get some peoples ideas on what they think things would be like in the different cultures.

Anuirians:

A few different systems for which I would try and do a map of an example village or manor etc. Allodial land is freeholdings.

Full feudal system all land is owned by the king, duke etc and all people have certain responsibilities to their lord. The king grants a certain amount of land to a duke a duke grants a certain amount of land to a baron etc.

Strong feudal system most land owned by the king but some allodial land owned by others. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Weak feudal system most of the land is allodial. Freeman are in the majority and there are few serfs. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Rjurik:

Full Udal system - all land is allodial and all men free.

Strong udal system - land is owned by communities and not individuals. Each village, town or tribe has one or more territories which are shared amoung its members and is mostly found amoung sparsley inhabited tribal nations.

weak udal system- most land is free and most people free but small amounts of feudal land and serfs exist as a holdover from the anuirian empire. Serf and freeman seperation with freemen largely free from feudal responsibilities.

Brecht:

Weak feudal - common system with large rich land holders and few small independent holders.

weak feudal - most land held by small holders.

Full feudal/strong feudal - danigau

may be other feaudal systems.

Vos:

Semi-Feudal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour in place of serfs and largely free population.

Semi- strong Udal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour does some of the work for a largely free population.


Khinasi :

Probably similar feudal setup to anuire but with udal tribal territories. I definatly need to think more about the khinasi.

Elves:

Weak feudal system for anuire. Village based tightly around an old elven tower for protection. May have small crop fields that are more like large gardens.

strong udal system for many others. Village to be spread out with no main through fair and plants found spread throughout. Small gardens but no crop fields.

Dwarven:

Probably a udal system.

A couple of villages. One a hill fort with wooden walls and the other underground with river and lochs.

Goblin:

Semi- strong Udal system - may have allodial land or not - slave labour does some of the work for a largely free population.

Semi weak feudal system in anuire- slaves but also serfs and the king granting territories to goblin lords and tribes who grant land to those under them.

Any idea's people have might get added in and if I get it done I will try and type it up and posts it some time after new year. If there is some interest and I think of anything else I will add it here for people to think over.

[kgauck]

Descriptions of the social and political conditions in the realms are in great need of editing. One of the great differences between each of the editions is the quality or cartoonishness of the descriptions of the social order. Third edition has a much better description of places, politics, and societies than any of the previous editions without having to sacrifice any of the fantasy. Converting the 2E materials, of which about half were nonsense, to a description which veteran players will recognize but without the silliness will be the major challenge.

[kgauck]

I'm looking at the Northbyrn River. When discussing Stjordvik, which is done in detail, because it has a PS, we hear of the fertile wonders of the Northbyrn River. On the Stjordvik side of the river we get Saerskaap (4) and Ustkjuvil (3). Of course there is no serious effect up-river. There are three parts of a river and the up-river parts are fast moving and generally take soil, not deposit it, and are not terribly useful for irrigation without damming the river. Consider what is across from Saerskaap and Ustkjuvil. We have Bjondrig (1), across from Ustkjuvil (and Hollingholmen), Riveside (2) and Romiene (1) across from Saerskaap. Why would we find 25,000 people on one side of the river, and 6,000 people on the other side?

The terrain is harder on the Stjordvik side.
Something seems to be going wrong in Dhoesone. Either these provinces are genuinely unoccupied despite the strong evidence of very fertile soil and a nice river, or the provinces have a population in the same ballpark (say 17,000) but because government has failed, the province levels are below what they could be if the Baroness wasn't being pulled in twenty different directions by mutually hostile factions.

[graham anderson]

It could be explained in dhoesone that old rjurik laws of land rights and tax prevent the ruler of dhoesone from fully benefiting from the territory and people there. Or there could be other explanations like the clans in the north of doesone holding the land and not wanting rapid expansion. Of course maybe the baroness could help sort these things out if she wasn't so busy with other things.

[dalor]

I always attributed the less settled areas of northern
Dhoesone as being the result of hostile neighbors.
Not really the Rjurik, but the humanoids of the
Giantdowns, the same sort from the bloodskull barony;
and then of course there could be raiding by less
friendly Rjurik in the employ of unscrupulous "robber
barons" of the Rjurik...I can`t remember the guys
name, but is it Storm Holtson or something like that?

Also, the people of Dhoesone didn`t strike me as
really fitting in either nitch: not really Anuireans
and not really Rjurik...so the more southerly
provinces of Dhoesone might be more heavily settled
simply because they are closer to the heart of the Old
Empire.


Anthony Edwards

--- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net
> message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
>
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3264
>
> kgauck wrote:
> I`m looking at the Northbyrn River. When discussing
> Stjordvik, which is done in detail, because it has a
> PS, we hear of the fertile wonders of the Northbyrn
> River. On the Stjordvik side of the river we get
> Saerskaap (4) and Ustkjuvil (3). Of course there is
> no serious effect up-river. There are three parts
> of a river and the up-river parts are fast moving
> and generally take soil, not deposit it, and are not
> terribly useful for irrigation without damming the
> river. Consider what is across from Saerskaap and
> Ustkjuvil. We have Bjondrig (1), across from
> Ustkjuvil (and Hollingholmen), Riveside (2) and
> Romiene (1) across from Saerskaap. Why would we
> find 25,000 people on one side of the river, and
> 6,000 people on the other side?
>
> The terrain is harder on the Stjordvik side.
> Something seems to be going wrong in Dhoesone.
> Either these provinces are genuinely unoccupied
> despite the strong evidence of very fertile soil and
> a nice river, or the provinces have a population in
> the same ballpark (say 17,000) but because
> government has failed, the province levels are below
> what they could be if the Baroness wasn`t being
> pulled in twenty different directions by mutually
> hostile factions.
>
>

>
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[The Swordgaunt]

This topic is brilliant!

At the moment, I am without an internet connection, and I'm browsing from my cellphone.

I look forward to reading more about this, and hopefully to contribute.

[irdeggman]

Cityscape has a lot of information concerning government types (specifically for cities).


Examples include:

Autocratic City
Democratic city
Feudal City
Magocratic City
Theocratic City
Tribal City

It also has information on Guilds, Organizations and Contacts.

All in all a very good book for building a society with cities, specifically for adventuring and PC play.

[graham anderson]

I haven't read cityscape. I might have to try and find it.

[kgauck]

I'm gonna pick up Cityscape today. Like most of the recent Wizards products, I expect it to be a compliation of the best stuff produced under the open source liscence. I've been very happy with Cityworks and Dynasties and Demagogues. But, what we need for BR, what we need to develope concerns the province and realm level, more than the city.

Its great to have a guide to building cool cities that make sense and provide places of fantastic adventure, but we need somthing that combines that on a larger scale (provinces not level of detail), includes land scape stuff (I am less satisfied with Wildscape produced by the same publisher as City Works, but its an OK book) and the kind of stuff in Magical Medieval Society, but again on a province level, rather than on the smaller scale (at least for much of the book) of MMS.

I propose that as we look forward to describing realms in a BR wiki, we construct just that kind of document, which provides a point of departure for constructing realms and provinces, as well as giving us a set of terms to use as a standard set of desriptions.

[AndrewTall]

For Dhoesone I would argue that politics is probably the cause of the low population.

The Rjurik probably don't immigrate because they don't want to be seen as servants of the empire / the druids disapprove (although the provinces bordering Stjordvik are guided by the oaken grove) / there is free land already in Rjurik, etc.

The Anuireans probably don't immigrate because Dhoesone could be politely described as a back water - ruled by a half-human, savage elves to the southeast, goblins to the southwest, berserkers to the north-west and monsters to the north-east. The one Anuirean border is with Cariele, which is hostile to Dhoesone.

As regards natural growth - to be expected given the land KGauck describes, it is possible the realm has a problem keeping youngsters, as they head for the bright lights of the big cities in Anuire to seek their fortune rather than work farms, particularly given the oppressive activities of the guilds.

If nomadic tribes still form a reasonable size of the population the population would also grow more slowly, particularly if the nomads keep 'forgetting' to enter themselves in the census.

For a normal realm that was depopulated by famine / war / etc I would normally expect land-grants, tax holidays, etc to otherwise attract a lot of immigrants, although it is probably easier to say that the 1524 HC population could be below average due to a recent plague, rumours of war, passive civil disobedience (refusal to sign onto the tax rolls) etc.

What I don't understand is why the rest of Anuire is paying for Dhoesone's army - anyone trading with the Rjurik would do so by boat given the absence of roads and relative travel time, if the army is there to defend Anuire (against the Rjurik?) the invaders would still have to plough through Cariele before they got to Anuire proper so why not put the troops in Cariele / Mhoried?