Temples, Alignment, and Paladins

[ShadowMoon]

And keep in mind, that back then there was only one Haelyn temple, the Imperial Temple, and within the Empire it was the superior of faiths, and recognised as a governing religious institution of the Empire (like a State Religion in present realms). So I am pretty sure that Imperial Temple sticked with Roeles. Roeles were like earthly manifestation of their overlord, and their protectors from the day one.

And I don't believe Emperors controled Temple holdings directly at anytime, though they had much influence within the Temple, and probably many of Roele's house were High Priests (like younger brothers, etc.). But I am sure that Temple swore their allegiance and signed a writ of vassalage to the Emperor.

Probably similar scenario went for Guilds, ie. Imperial Guild managed the economy of the Empire, and again there were probably some of Roele's blood that were Guild Masters, but Emperors never had any Guild holdings. Again they were most probably vassals of the Imperial seat.

And all landed rulers within the Empire were vassals of the Iron Throne.

All "court" Wizards swore their allegiance to the Royal (Imperial) College of Sorcery, the sole center of the legal arcane society. College of Sorcery was under direct sponsorship of the Iron Throne and swore the oath of vassalage to the Emperor.

What I am saying is that the Emperor is a single govermental body, and he never had Temple and Guild holdings let alone Sources, only Law holdings, colonial assets and lands before Godswar with Imperial City and some surrounding territory (Anuire province) remaining. But Imperial Temple, and Imperial Guild were vassals to the Iron Throne, as well as remaining landed rulers.

Emperors commanded Imperial Legion that was elite (praetorian-like) army, with a full support of the Knights of Haelyn. So no matter that main bulk of Anuirean military was commanded and mustered by various nobles, Imperial seat was never defenseless, nor easy to conquer either by mundane or magical means or through the diplomacy.

Besides not many nobles would turn against their liege openly, because they would go directly against their own right to rule their realm, as well as against their patron Haelyn. So plots and schemes were always present, but Imperial position of Roeles was never seriously endangered.

Till Boeruine started the coup with the help of Michael Roele's older sister. But Michael dealt with that properly, though his sister made a pact with the Gorgon later, thus leading Michael Roele to his doom on the fields of Gorgon's Crown, and leaving the Empire without a heir, which lead to fall of the Imperial line, and the Empire.


Slightly-Off Topic:

I never understood how Boeruine got away with this, I mean its a terribile stain on their name, especially now when the "myth" of the great Empire is something that makes Anuirean hearts swell with pride.


EDIT: Important!

Majority of these posts were moved from Avanil thread, and many were posted regarding the Imperial might and right to hold the Iron Throne even if Roeles had no recorded land of their own after the Godswar. Please take this into the consideration...

[kgauck]

The idea of a Divine Dynasty is more realistic in a Fantasy Game (if you can pardon the seeming paradox) than in our real world.

I disagree. People in the 15th century believed as much as anyone can believe that a real god made his will manifest in this world. Just because we are more impressed with the mechanics of spell effects doesn't mean that they would be more persuasive than whatever evidence a 15th century figure might point to. Once you believe that your god makes his will manifest, you believe it, fantasy game elements won't make it more believable.

Who in their right mind would go against a family directly related to the very god they called on in battle...and nearly all other things as well?

Anyone who
1) thought that the ruler had betrayed Haelyn and lost the Mandate of Heaven,
2) was also related to Haelyn and believed that in a family squabble Haelyn would side with him because he's in the right (and everyone thinks they are right, its what enables action) or at the very least believes that Haelyn will stand neutral
3) cases of 1, 2, or both of the above will be a significant portion of the troubles facing any ruler.

[dalor]

So you really don`t think that if the Pope could
literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke the
will of an All-Mighty God...and not only the Pope but
Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the lowly
Friar...that the Reformation would still have come to
be and that various Kings would still have rebelled
against the will of the Pope?

Not getting into a religious discussion here really;
but I will stand firm that I whole-heartedly disagree
with you concerning the Roele family.

Where the various religions of the world can obviously
show scientific reasoning for the existence of an
All-Mighty, the primary tool for most religions is
faith.

On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial Temple
of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and raise
the dead on a daily basis. There is little need for
faith in such a fantastical religion as this...no need
at all really when everyone accepts magic because they
have SEEN the magic.

I should know, because I`m a Priest and excercise my
faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of
little faith that what I`m saying is SCIENTIFICALLY
true...like the men of Haelyn`s Temple and Roele`s
family could by invoking the magic granted them.

So again...there is a HUGE difference between this
real world and the applications of faith and the
fantasy world of Cerilia where men and women can at
any time in their life "tempt the Lord" and expect to
see a Priest perform a miracle.

The primary difference between believing that an
All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the world
and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
comparison.

--- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> The idea of a Divine Dynasty is more realistic in a
> Fantasy Game (if you can pardon the seeming paradox)
> than in our real world.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> I disagree. People in the 15th century believed as
> much as anyone can believe that a real god made his
> will manifest in this world. Just because we are
> more impressed with the mechanics of spell effects
> doesn`t mean that they would be more persuasive than
> whatever evidence a 15th century figure might point
> to. Once you believe that your god makes his will
> manifest, you believe it, fantasy game elements
> won`t make it more believable.
>
>
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Who in their right mind would go against a family
> directly related to the very god they called on in
> battle...and nearly all other things as well?
> -----------------------------
>
> Anyone who
> 1) thought that the ruler had betrayed Haelyn and
> lost the Mandate of Heaven,
> 2) was also related to Haelyn and believed that in a
> family squabble Haelyn would side with him because
> he`s in the right (and everyone thinks they are
> right, its what enables action) or at the very least
> believes that Haelyn will stand neutral
> 3) cases of 1, 2, or both of the above will be a
> significant portion of the troubles facing any
> ruler.
>
>
>
> The fact that every noble was with little doubt
> invested by a Priest who belonged to the church of
> the
> Imperial Family`s direct relation would be a primary
> facet in every man`s thinking. The fact that the
> Roele`s had a True Bloodline no doubt meant that
> they
> were literally looked upon as near-gods at the
> least.
>
> Did the Roele Emperors have land? Without a doubt.
> It can`t be overlooked though that religion played a
> significant part in their rule and their early ideas
> of "Manifest Destiny"...If Haelyn were the King of
> the
> Gods, why not should his own people be lords over
> all
> others?
>
> Religion no doubt played even more a role in the
> affairs of the Anuirean Empire than it ever did in
> the
> Pope`s tenuous hold over Europe until the time of
> the
> Reformation Movement.
>
> Not only did the Emperor rule as a Temporal Emperor,
> but he was the direct relation to a God that was the
> God of an entire people...and I`m sure that is
> exactly
> how the various Temples to Haelyn taught it. Were
> the
> Catholic Pope`s one continuous family of decent from
> Jesus himself would be the only way to compare the
> two...and obviously they were not.
>
> So I second the idea that once there were no more
> Roele`s to sit on the throne, it is little wonder
> the
> Empire has never recovered: the entire idea that
> Gods
> ruled the people was shattered and with so much
> doubt
> then in place there was no hope for the Empire to
> survive.
>
> Thanks for the quote by the way, its always good to
> read the thoughts of other people...who are you
> quoting?
>
>
> --- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> > kgauck wrote:
> > ------------ QUOTE ----------
> > Very true...they were most often figureheads,
> until
> > the advent of the modern era really...My point was
> > only that a national leader can lead without
> having
> > lands...even in a feudal system.
> > -----------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > In the modern era, vast bureaucracies can inforce
> > the impersonal will of the state, which can make a
> > figurehead appear powerful. But it is the inertia
> > and raison d`etre of the organization that keep it
> > going, not the desires of a leader. Leaders who
> > oppose the bureaucracy can destroy themselves.
> >
> > "It must be considered that there is nothing more
> > difficult to carry out, nor more doubtful of
> > success, nor more dangerous to handle, than to
> > initiate a new order of things. For the reformer
> has
> > enemies in all those who profit by the old order,
> > and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would
> > profit by the new order, this lukewarmness arising
> > partly from fear of their adversaries, who have
> the
> > laws in their favour; and partly from the
> > incredulity of mankind, who do not truly believe
> in
> > anything new until they have had actual experience
> > of it. Thus it arises that on every opportunity
> for
> > attacking the reformer, his opponents do so with
> the
> > zeal of partisans, the others only defend him
> > half-heartedly, so that between them he runs great
> > danger."
>
>
>
>
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[ShadowMoon]

I agree with Dalor, though I doubt that Priests practice their Divine Channeling that regulary. So probably most of people never see "Divine Manifestation" anyway. When Priest gives blessings, differs strongly from when he actually invokes Bless as a spell. No need to mention the rarity and special circumstances for powerful high level spells. Priest is a faithful servant and a guide on Heaven/Hell/World relation. He wouldn't dare to mess with God's plans lightly, so he will be very carefull with his prayers, rituals, and invokations.

Resurrection is a great example. Sure Gods grant such power to mortals, but if a God didn't wanted someone to die, that someone wouldn't needed to be resurrected in the first place. No need to mention Bloodline complication if one Scion is returned to life, and Bloodline is a form of Divine Essence. Very few Priests would be so arogant and/or foolish to try to undo God's will.

[Autarkis]

Resurrection is a great example. Sure Gods grant such power to mortals, but if a God didn't wanted someone to die, that someone wouldn't needed to be resurrected in the first place. No need to mention Bloodline coplication if one Scion is returned to life, and Bloodline is a form of Divine Essence. Very few Priests would be so arogant and/or foolish to try to undo God's will.

I disagree. The pantheon is still made up of opposing factions. They are not viewed as one monolithic entity, but different groups seeking to oppose the other, with the caveat they won't interfere directly. So a person dies, and a priest won't raise them because a god wished the person dead? If it was Haelynite wishing to raise a champion, what is to say Haelyn doesn't want him raised and Belinik sought to kill him?

Priests are the "hands" of the gods and do their will. It would be less arrogant/foolish and more them doing their part to ensure the balance is kept. If Haelyn (or whoever your god is) didn't want the spell to work, then it won't. That will be the test of whether it is against his god's will.

[ConjurerDragon]

Anthony Edwards schrieb:
> So you really don`t think that if the Pope could
> literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke the
> will of an All-Mighty God...and not only the Pope but
> Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the lowly
> Friar...that the Reformation would still have come to
> be and that various Kings would still have rebelled
> against the will of the Pope?
>
Certainly :-)
One one part because it does not matter what the real pope could do - as
long as the people believed what he could do.
When someone living in a former century had the firm belief that the
pope and his clergy had the power to sent their souls to hell - in a
time where life was a misery and the promise of a heaven kept lots of
people going, then they did not need to actually see the pope summoning
an angel. Even a fire started from a random lightning bolt would have
been seen as "punishment for the evils of that village" because people
firmly believed that lightning was sent from god.

On the other part because those who rebelled/supported the reformation
are not the lowly peasants but those that in a fantasy world would be
nearly on the same level as the pope. Learned men, Clerics, Dukes first
not questioning the pope or the church, but the behaviour and seeing a
chance to claim more power.. Moral critizism of the leaders - even a low
priest of Haelyn might perform just as Martin Luther did.
> "Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of the Scriptures or
> by clear reason ... I neither can nor will make any retraction, since
> it is neither safe nor honourable to act against conscience. God help
> me. Amen."^[32] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#_note-20>

> On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial Temple
> of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and raise
> the dead on a daily basis. There is little need for
> faith in such a fantastical religion as this...no need
> at all really when everyone accepts magic because they
> have SEEN the magic.
>
And that irks me sind the transition to 3rd edition. I just loved 2nd
editions Birthright scarcity on Raise Dead magic. Perhaps a dozen
priests in all of Cerilia able to raise the dead suited my imagination
very well. Raising the dead as daily routine - bah.

> I should know, because I`m a Priest and excercise my
> faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of
> little faith that what I`m saying is SCIENTIFICALLY
> true...like the men of Haelyn`s Temple and Roele`s
> family could by invoking the magic granted them.
>
But they did not and could not. Because D&D assumes that a god grants
spells even to those that have slightly different views. Just as in the
current BR timeline different temples of Haelyn compete there could
always have been some disagreement between faction withing the former
united temple - and clerics on both sides of an argument could do the
same things.
> The primary difference between believing that an
> All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the world
> and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
> ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
> comparison.
>
>
No. The faith of nowadays man is limited by knowledge of nature. Where
commen men in former times saw miracles we see the laws of nature or
simple physics - so former men did see gods will manifest in the world
believing his will to be behind everything that happened.

[ShadowMoon]

btw, I am not sure where your comment on summoning angels comes from - as far as I am aware there are no deva's / demons etc in BR, only Shadow World creatures (who can admittedly stand in for either) so the church shouldn't have otherwordly minions, not that it really needs them with spell casting priests, paladins, etc.

In Godswar Azrai commanded legions of Demons, but when old gods were destroyed, Shadow World pulled them all in, including various Outsiders.

[dalor]

Strictly a comparitive statement...not intended
literally. I was simply stating that to be able to do
such things would have made a vast difference in this,
our real world.

--- AndrewTall <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> btw, I am not sure where your comment on summoning
> angels comes from - as far as I am aware there are
> no deva`s / demons etc in BR, only Shadow World
> creatures (who can admittedly stand in for either)
> so the church shouldn`t have otherwordly minions,
> not that it really needs them with spell casting
> priests, paladins, etc.



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[dalor]

Ohhhh...the impossible task of arguing a Fantasy
Setting with examples from our own world. LOL

I suppose it will ever be possible to put forth any
number of opinions and stances on any topic.

If I had the time I would debate more...

but instead all I can say is: it is easy to debate
topics on which none of us have ever had first hand
experience...none of us has ever seen the Pope speak
with an angel any more than we have seen a wizard
throw a fireball. LOL

Endless conjecture is all that results. ;-)


--- Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

> Anthony Edwards schrieb:
> > So you really don`t think that if the Pope could
> > literally cause Angels to come to earth and invoke
> the
> > will of an All-Mighty God...and not only the Pope
> but
> > Cardinals, Arch-Bishops, Bishobs and even the
> lowly
> > Friar...that the Reformation would still have come
> to
> > be and that various Kings would still have
> rebelled
> > against the will of the Pope?
> >
> Certainly :-)
> One one part because it does not matter what the
> real pope could do - as
> long as the people believed what he could do.
> When someone living in a former century had the firm
> belief that the
> pope and his clergy had the power to sent their
> souls to hell - in a
> time where life was a misery and the promise of a
> heaven kept lots of
> people going, then they did not need to actually see
> the pope summoning
> an angel. Even a fire started from a random
> lightning bolt would have
> been seen as "punishment for the evils of that
> village" because people
> firmly believed that lightning was sent from god.
>
> On the other part because those who
> rebelled/supported the reformation
> are not the lowly peasants but those that in a
> fantasy world would be
> nearly on the same level as the pope. Learned men,
> Clerics, Dukes first
> not questioning the pope or the church, but the
> behaviour and seeing a
> chance to claim more power.. Moral critizism of the
> leaders - even a low
> priest of Haelyn might perform just as Martin Luther
> did.
> > "Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of
> the Scriptures or
> > by clear reason ... I neither can nor will make
> any retraction, since
> > it is neither safe nor honourable to act against
> conscience. God help
> > me. Amen."^[32]
>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#_note-20>
>
>
> > On the other hand, we have men in the Imperial
> Temple
> > of Haelyn that can invoke fire from the sky and
> raise
> > the dead on a daily basis. There is little need
> for
> > faith in such a fantastical religion as this...no
> need
> > at all really when everyone accepts magic because
> they
> > have SEEN the magic.
> >
> And that irks me sind the transition to 3rd edition.
> I just loved 2nd
> editions Birthright scarcity on Raise Dead magic.
> Perhaps a dozen
> priests in all of Cerilia able to raise the dead
> suited my imagination
> very well. Raising the dead as daily routine - bah.
>
> > I should know, because I`m a Priest and excercise
> my
> > faith daily...and wish daily I could SHOW those of
> > little faith that what I`m saying is
> SCIENTIFICALLY
> > true...like the men of Haelyn`s Temple and Roele`s
> > family could by invoking the magic granted them.
> >
> But they did not and could not. Because D&D assumes
> that a god grants
> spells even to those that have slightly different
> views. Just as in the
> current BR timeline different temples of Haelyn
> compete there could
> always have been some disagreement between faction
> withing the former
> united temple - and clerics on both sides of an
> argument could do the
> same things.
> > The primary difference between believing that an
> > All-Mighty is making their will manifest in the
> world
> > and SEEING that will being implemented beyond your
> > ability to explain is so vast as to be beyond
> > comparison.
> >
> >
> No. The faith of nowadays man is limited by
> knowledge of nature. Where
> commen men in former times saw miracles we see the
> laws of nature or
> simple physics - so former men did see gods will
> manifest in the world
> believing his will to be behind everything that
> happened.




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[AndrewTall]

Strictly a comparitive statement...not intended
literally. I was simply stating that to be able to do
such things would have made a vast difference in this,
our real world.

I certainly agree that if a priest could just drop a lightning bolt on an unbeliever's head, heal the lame, etc, etc then the priesthood is likely to be even more powerful than in real life - although I seem to be outnumbered in the belief that mages will as a result be either hated and outcast by the church (as their power must be non-divine i.e. evil, and disproves the priestly I have magic therefore I speak for god argument) or that they will be a core part of the church (as clearly they are divinely blessed).

The game problem however is that if you make the churches much stronger than in RL they become absolutely dominant - facing down the pope was a major task for several English/British Kings despite the fact that the pope owned no land or armies, while concerns over 'papist plots' dominated British history for centuries after the split.

For a game to be interesting the church needs some power, but not so much that it can resolve any dispute at whim. That encourages a multitude of churches so that no one church has 'absolute truth', a pantheistic approach, etc, the additions of druids / elemental clerics who have power but follow no god, the removal of the core god focus, etc.