SV: BIRTHRIGHT] - Question abou

[Pieter A de Jong]

Given the recent discussion of high level elves on this list I thought that
I might present a few of my own views.
1. The Humans winning the Human-Elven war before Diesmaar.
The reasons the humans won this war was not priestly magic. The
humans initially came to the Cerilian continent as refugees after getting
their but kicked by the adurian empires controlled by Azrai. Their
population base could not hope to match that of the elves, even after they
had had 2-3 hundred years of recovery. Thousands of years prior to the
human arrival, the elves had already established a practically continental
wide hegemony. Human priest are not going to make up that kind of a
difference, especially, because the humans had no true mages. If it comes
down to a society with priests vs. a society with mages in war, I will take
the mages. Especially seing as in this case the mages are likely going to
be much higher level (elves are immortal, humans aren't effectively limiting
the levels they can attain on a relatively low magic world like Birthright).
So, why did the humans win this war ? Simple, direct Divine intervention.
Remember, this is pre-Deismaar, the gods are not limited in their
appearances on the material plane. While elven sorcerers are capable of
dealing with human priests, divine avatars are another matter!
2. High level elven characters
Yes, there will be some incredibly high level elven characters
running around. They are not, however, likely to be doing much (unless the
PC's or major NPC's try something like elven genocide). Why? because it is
unlikely that they are actually blooded. Remember that very few people
actually recieved bloodlines at Deismaar. Most of today's blooded are the
results of 20+ generations of families spreading things out.
Also note, that there will be *very* few of these characters around.
Why? Deismaar again. When the elves switched sides at Deismaar they a) held
the Vos and humanoid hordes (remember that comment in TOTHW {tribes of the
heartless waste} that one Vos Champion could take three champions of
Anduiras and win!) as well as distracting Azrai himself long enough for the
other gods to regroup for their final self-annihalating assault on Azrai!
This resulted in large numbers of casualties (and also explains why in all
the supplements I have senn there are no churches advocating a general
policy of elven genocide).
Finally, for those of you who want some ideas as to the power levels
I ascribe to these characters, Elminster in the forgotten realms (blech) is
a 29th level mage. He has a conscious age (long periods of statis) of about
2000 years. It is clear from the elven timeline that was presented in the
Tuarhievel sourcebook that elven history extends back at least 10000 years.
The characters that are most likely to survive Deismaar are the most
powerful ones (the oldest ones) meaning that it is quite possible that there
is a mage or two out there of at least 30th level and perhaps more.
3. Elven Gods?
Finally, a plot suggestion. From the above, it is clear that it was
gods not men that won the Elven-Human war. Also, it was gods that caused
the elven tragedy at Deismaar. For such high-level and long-lived
characters, it would be clear that the elves need a god/gods to protect
them. Also, it is clear that in Cerilia divine ascension is possible by
collecting enought bloodline strength. I can think of several examples
Haelyn, Nesirie, etc, as well as the Serpent. Could he actually be granting
low level priest spells to his followers (perhaps following the rules for
Demi-powers)? There are some elves with bloodlines and I could see a
concerted effort being made by the elven people to raise one of these
bloodlines in power to the point of divine ascension to ensure the future of
the Elven race. That would make an interesting plot complication in a
predominantly human campaign (what would the other gods think of such a
plan?). Or for Elven PC's it would be difficult establishing the neccesary
alliances between Realms, and transfers of regency, not to mention deciding
who they will try and raise to divinity (note that this should be a case of
which NPC!!). Finally, if you allow travel to other prime material planes
from birthright I can see the elves attempting to get the aid of foreign
(non-Birthright) powers in this endeavour, for example Correlon Lareithon
would likely be glad to help, or given the elves Elemental origins they
might contact the powers of the elemental planes.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Neil Barnes]

On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> Given the recent discussion of high level elves on this list I thought that
> I might present a few of my own views.
> 1. The Humans winning the Human-Elven war before Diesmaar.
> The reasons the humans won this war was not priestly magic. The
> humans initially came to the Cerilian continent as refugees after getting
> their but kicked by the adurian empires controlled by Azrai. Their
> population base could not hope to match that of the elves, even after they
> had had 2-3 hundred years of recovery. Thousands of years prior to the
> human arrival, the elves had already established a practically continental
> wide hegemony.

Don't forget that the elves were loosing the war with the humanoids
before the humans arrived. The elves never had the peace necessary to
establish a 'continent-wide hegemony' because they were under constant
pressure from the humanoids.

It takes elves something like 100 - 150 years to grow up. Humanoids,
having (IMC) a polygamous society and a generational time of about 10 -
12 years, are able to replenish lost number quickly - the females are
kept at home doing the gathering/ farming/ having kids stuff, while the
males are off killing things. Thus even if a humanoid tribe looses 90%
of it's numbers, they can recover from that within less than 12 years.

Thus if 100 humanoids die killing each elf, it doesn't make a huge
amount of difference. The humanoids can replace those numbers in 10 - 12
years, while the elves take 100+ years for a replacement to grow to
maturity.

> Human priest are not going to make up that kind of a
> difference, especially, because the humans had no true mages. If it comes
> down to a society with priests vs. a society with mages in war, I will take
> the mages.

I suspect you're really under-estimating the power of priestly magic -
while not as obviously powerful, spells like Prayer have an amazing
effect if used carefully. Secondly check out Focus in the Tome of Magic
- - a very potent spell. Oh, and thirdly Flame Strike, Call Lightning,
Slay Living & Harm are great for disposing of those pesky little high
level elven mages.

So when the elves went to war with the humans, it was a case of a
limited number of elves (the entire elven population was never involved
in the Ghealle Sidhe), who had taken a lot of damage during the war
with the humanoids, going up against an organised foe, whose population
had exploded subsequant to their arrival on the continent, with
organised magic capable of matching what the elves could throw at
them.

neil

[Trizt]

On 27-Jan-98, Pieter A de Jong (pad300@mail.usask.ca) wrote about Re: SV:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - BIRTHRIGHT] - Question about
- -> 3. Elven Gods?
- ->For such high-level and long-lived
- ->characters, it would be clear that the elves need a god/gods to protect
- ->them. Also, it is clear that in Cerilia divine ascension is possible by
- ->collecting enought bloodline strength. I can think of several examples
- ->Haelyn, Nesirie, etc, as well as the Serpent.
- ->There are some elves with bloodlines and I could see a
- ->concerted effort being made by the elven people to raise one of these
- ->bloodlines in power to the point of divine ascension to ensure the future of
- ->the Elven race.

I see the Cerilian Elves as the original elves and therefore I doupte that
they ever will worship a god as they will know that they where around a lon
long time before any gods (humans on the otherside are so shortminded that
they would have forgot 20 mins after the first god had taken it's place that
they too had existed a long time before the god). I can think that an elf will
someday have as much power as needed to become a god, but to become one will
never occure in their minds, it would have been esier to convince Henry IIIV t
become a pesant than convince an elf that a god is needed.


//Trizt of Ward^RITE

--------------------
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--------------------

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 07:08 PM 1/28/98 +0100, Trizt wrote:
>On 27-Jan-98, Pieter A de Jong (pad300@mail.usask.ca) wrote about Re: SV:
>[BIRTHRIGHT] - BIRTHRIGHT] - Question about
>-> 3. Elven Gods?
>->
>
>I see the Cerilian Elves as the original elves and therefore I doupte that
>they ever will worship a god as they will know that they where around a lon
>long time before any gods (humans on the otherside are so shortminded that
>they would have forgot 20 mins after the first god had taken it's place that
>they too had existed a long time before the god). I can think that an elf will
>someday have as much power as needed to become a god, but to become one will
>never occure in their minds, it would have been esier to convince Henry IIIV t
>become a pesant than convince an elf that a god is needed.
>
>
I may have mistated myself causing some confusion. I am not neccesarily
suggesting that the elves will see a need for gods as such, simply for
beings with the capabilities to match the power levels of the humans and
other races gods. Elven clerics and worshippers as such are indeed very
unlikely. However, it is not apparent that worship is neccesary to support
the power of a divine being. For example in Birthright, there are very few
temples indeed to Ruornil, but he still retains divine status (and power)
relative to other gods who have many more temples/worshippers. If we look
to other worlds, for example Greyhawk, we see Boccob, the lord of magic, has
very little worship indeed but retains his status as a Greater God.

PS. Is there any explanation as to why both gods of magic, (Ruornil and
Avani) are both good, with no counterparts in evil magic. I see magic as a
neutral force rather than one aligned with the ethos of good.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada