Stupid Elf Tricks?

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Tue, 12 May 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
> domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized agriculture.

> 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat

Not a chance. Depend for their very survival on outsiders?
They're too proud and too smart to do that.

> 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat

This can be a very subtle point: Nature *likes* elves, and cuts
them all sorts of slack. I'd say elven forests are bursting with life,
and the land can simply support more people. Consider that the magic
potential of a province is a measure of the vitality of the land itself:
you get a much better crop of *wild* wheat just springing up between the
trees in a forest province with a source (9) than can be sowed by humans
in a plains province (5/0). Well, make that better in the sense of more
nourishing -- a pint of wild strawberries from a province (9) could feed
a human well for a day, too.

> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> Maybe they just don't need as much food as humans do,

That is certainly the attitude of the Complete Book of Elves.

> maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off starlight?

This is the Runequest (Glorantha) solution: the "elves" are
basically treants, and thus photosynthetic. My problem with this is that
elves are just too short compared to oak trees for this to be viable.
However, consider the following idea: elves get some or most of their
sustenance *directly from mebhaighl*. No need for realm spells or
anything, just the need to live in areas where there's a lot of magical
energy just being there and very slowly oozing off into the elves. This
explanation also does a decent job for immortality, and not needing a
bloodline to cast magic. One consequence of this is that if an elf goes
to a province with a magic potential less than a certain level, they have
to eat more. Maybe in a province with zero magic potential, they have to
eat more than humans do to maintain the superior vitality!

- --Ryan

[Robert Harper]

For context, I run a non-Birthright campaign that uses Birthright domain
rules etc (with a different explanation of Regency). I permit any
nature-oriented culture to develop to level 4 without impairing Source. This
includes wood and high elves, and druidic cultures in my campaign.

This is predicated on assumptions about harmonious lifestyles, no
overhunting, limited access to materials such as metal ores and stone
(important for weapons, military units and fortification), greater use of
plant and animal products (which may include fantasy products that
substitute for metal and stone in some situations, but overall means using
wooden and primitive weapons - my elves don't wear platemail).

I believe it is realistic. Historically, the sources I rely on say that
"low impact" cultures of hunter/gatherers could support up to 10 people per
square mile. In a typical province (1000-1500 square miles according to the
rulebook, p.33) that would be 10,000 to 15,000 people - or about level 4 -
for an area rich in growth and animal life and with favourable climate.

One could (in Birthright) suppose a combination of the ancient wisdom of
elves (which presumably has had time to learn alot about nature) and magic
can raise this to level 6.

Personally, I prefer assume the affect of magic is simply to counterbalance
malign supernatural influences and maintain production at roughly historical
levels. Historically, hunters didn't have divination spells to help them
(although they thought they did) but they also didn't have voraciously
predatory rivals like owlbears, dragons, trolls etc. and similar hazards to
contend with.

IMHO, Trade is not a viable explanation, as the elves would be relying on
some intensive agriculture civilization outside their own (which seems
repugnant to them, and wouldn't have worked before there were such). There
are spells that have considerable consequences for agricultural production -
Plant Growth, but they are of a clerical and not wizardly bent (the wizard
version of Plant Growth has no benefits for agriculture as the cleric
version does), personally I prefer to keep the "life force
restoring/affirming/boosting" magics in the clerical sphere and make sure
wizardly approaches to these tasks are nasty necromantic ones.

The "elves don't eat as much" argument is the best and most 'flavourful',
although it what assumptions you want to make about whether elves are
biological creatures fundamentally like or unlike others. If they don't
"eat as much" I would only let them get away with that in natural
surroundings. In cities, deserts, caves without rich soil, water, sunlight
(i.e. what would support verdant plant growth) I would have them whither and
die.

At 02:07 PM 5/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
>domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized
agriculture.
>So, I am know asking about how this might make sense. I see several
>possibilities
> 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat
> This one is difficult because the elves have lousy foreign relations
>(for example the realm of Lluabright is completely closed). Not to mention
>that transporting that much food could get a little difficult.
> 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat
> All right this is at least in theory possible, with customized
>wizard spells, or even simply with major creation spells. But, this implies
>a lot of wizards; Do we really want that many elven wizards running around?
> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> This is also viable, what with elves being immortal creatures of
>starlight and faerie dust. Maybe they just don't need as much food as
>humans do, maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off
>starlight?
>
>Okay, so there are the three possiblities that I saw, I would like to hear
>from everyone, especially TSR folks, what do you think?

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Tue, 12 May 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
>
> I'd like to offer a (minor) amendment to that, though:
> Elves can walk up slopes, but they can't walk up cliffs. Nor are they
> immune to, say, quicksand, or avalanches. However, that other junk, sure.

Sure -- it needs to be a grade of less than 45 degrees, or
something like that. And yes, if there are rocks rolling down the hill
towards them, they get crushed. But they can walk on very precariously
balanced or fragile rock/snow piles without *causing* an avalanche.

- --Ryan

[KirbyRanma]

"All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized
agriculture. So, I am know asking about how this might make sense. I see
several possibilities:
[...]
3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do."


A good rule to remember is that elves are more tied to nature than humans
are. They don't need an "organized agriculture" to keep fed. The woods are
filled with animals such as mice, wolves, bears, owls, rabbits, etc. and they
don't have to have an "organized agriculture" to survive. Most elves will eat
fruits and vegetables before they'll eat meat. And when they do eat meat, it
isn't nearly as much as humans would eat. Something to keep in mind: elves
have "cities" in the forests, but they don't chop down trees to get them.

Take care,
Kirby

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: KirbyRanma
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Stupid Elf Tricks?



> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do."

> A good rule to remember is that elves are more tied to nature than
humans
>are. They don't need an "organized agriculture" to keep fed.

Neither do Humans, there are even a few Hunter-Gatherer cultures still
extant today, but what happens? Well, those with organized agriculture
are able to support higher populations at a greater density, and so they
tend to win out in the end.

[KirbyRanma]

"Neither do Humans, there are even a few Hunter-Gatherer cultures still extant
today, but what happens? Well, those with organized agriculture are able to
support higher populations at a greater density, and so they tend to win out
in the end."

Actually, there are quite a few cultures that are like elves are today.
They live in trees and they don't have an organized agriculture. They have
survived all that life has thrown at them. They consider themselves winners
as well. It also depends on what you're talking about when you say "[those
with organized agriculture] tend to win out in the end." What is winning?
Having a population of 100,000 people living within a few square miles of each
other? Elves like the forests and don't want to have a million elves living
there if it means chopping down the trees. That is their victory by
succeeding in forests where the humans don't.

Take care,
Kirby

[Trankel Al Ker]

At 01:56 PM 14/05/98 +0200, MANTA wrote:
>
>P.S. What do you guys think about the bearded elf onpg 68 of the Rjurik
>Highlands? Is it swiched with Storm Holtson on the next page or don´t the
>guys at TSR explained the basics to the artist? (He´s got some fine art but
>that´s a huge flaw!)

Hehehehe.. and I thought that that was the reason he was so handsome! =).
In the description it says that he's one of the more attractive elves alive.

Actually, in my group, if you're an elf and you've 16 of Charisma (or
more) you have a bear! =) (just a funny thought)...


Trankel Al Ker
Lord of the Brotherhood of the Black Tulipan

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: KirbyRanma
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Stupid Elf Tricks?


>"Neither do Humans, there are even a few Hunter-Gatherer cultures still
extant
>today, but what happens? Well, those with organized agriculture are able
to
>support higher populations at a greater density, and so they tend to win
out
>in the end."
>
> Actually, there are quite a few cultures that are like elves are
today.

Quite a few? Not compared to the numbers of non-HG types.

>They live in trees and they don't have an organized agriculture.

? Yes, there are some like that, however there are others such as
the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert, who most certainly don't live
in Trees, plus certain Australian Aborigines groups.

> They have survived all that life has thrown at them. They consider
> themselves winners as well.

That they do. However, that's a cultural position, not an objective
one.. And let's do stay out of the argument of agricultural vs
Hunter-Gatherer,
as that wouldn't help anyone.

> It also depends on what you're talking about when you say "[those
>with organized agriculture] tend to win out in the end." What is winning?

Survival. There are far more dead H-G cultures than ones that adopted
Agriculture.


>Having a population of 100,000 people living within a few square miles of
each
>other? Elves like the forests and don't want to have a million elves
living
>there if it means chopping down the trees. That is their victory by
>succeeding in forests where the humans don't.

Of course, if the humans manage to kill off all the elves, or force them
into smaller areas(and reduced populations), that's a form of winning
as well.

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Thu, 14 May 1998, MANTA wrote:
> the survival of elves depends on humans? If that would be true, how did
> they survive before the arrival of humans? Fed by the Dwarves? Goblins
> (yuk!)? I don´t think so.

Well, the golden age of elves in Cerilia was indeed a slave empire
built on the backs of the goblins and kobolds. What exactly the Sidhelien
used them for is unclear... mining? cannon fodder? Farming seems a
likely explanation if it were not for the fact that this was several
thousand years before humans arrived on the continent (and probably before
humans invented agriculture anyway), so it is unlikely that the elves had
even conceived of the idea of farming.

> > nourishing -- a pint of wild strawberries from a province (9) could feed
> > a human well for a day, too.
>
> I don´t think that whatever link exists between the elves and their forests
> (that someway keeps them alive in ways unthought(sp?) by any mortal - the
> fact they don´t need to sleep or eat(?)) can work as well for ANY human.
> There´s got to be some secret way only known by them (and maybe it´s just
> natural).

I don't like this one of my theories either -- I just thought I'd
put it out there with the rest. =)

> How DO they do it?? Can the secret of imortality be learned? Can humans
> learn it? What would hapen then?

I would say they hardly know themselves. What do we know even
today about how we sleep, for example? Surely not enough to teach someone
else *how*.
If humans did become immortal, they would need to become more
elven to survive: they'd need to drastically lower their birth rate, and
pay a lot more attention to the health of the land and sustainability of
development.

> > However, consider the following idea: elves get some or most of their
> > sustenance *directly from mebhaighl*. No need for realm spells or
> > anything, just the need to live in areas where there's a lot of magical
> > energy just being there and very slowly oozing off into the elves. This
>
> I like this explanation A LOT!!

Thank you. =)

> They´re in tune with Nature - they ARE sentinent Nature.

Well put. This is very much my feeling. It also means that the
elves are right when they say that they are the guardians of Nature.
There's a spell from the Chronomancer accessory that also agrees, in a
sense: Articus's Devolutionary Warrior does not work on elves. The spell
description says a popular explanation for this is that the elves did not
in fact evolve from anything: they just sprang into being fully formed
some long time ago. One interesting question is when... I know the answer
for my campaign, but that's something each DM should decide and probably
keep secret from the players -- the universe should not necessarily be
that well understood. ;)

> The question is: can humans learn their secret? I say yes, but... the elves

I say no -- it's simply a question of biology. Can a tiger learn
to be an eagle?

> P.S. What do you guys think about the bearded elf onpg 68 of the Rjurik
> Highlands?

It bothers me quite a a bit.

> Is it swiched with Storm Holtson on the next page

That is an interesting suggestion... I'll have to look more
closely, but I like it so far.

- --Ryan

[MANTA]

- ----------
> On Tue, 12 May 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> > 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat
>
> Not a chance. Depend for their very survival on outsiders?
> They're too proud and too smart to do that.
>


I compleetly agree with this. What sense would make the "gheallie Sidhe" if
the survival of elves depends on humans? If that would be true, how did
they survive before the arrival of humans? Fed by the Dwarves? Goblins
(yuk!)? I don´t think so.


> > 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat
>
> This can be a very subtle point: Nature *likes* elves, and cuts
> them all sorts of slack. I'd say elven forests are bursting with life,
> and the land can simply support more people. Consider that the magic
> potential of a province is a measure of the vitality of the land itself:
> you get a much better crop of *wild* wheat just springing up between the
> trees in a forest province with a source (9) than can be sowed by humans
> in a plains province (5/0). Well, make that better in the sense of more
> nourishing -- a pint of wild strawberries from a province (9) could feed
> a human well for a day, too.
>

I don´t think that whatever link exists between the elves and their forests
(that someway keeps them alive in ways unthought(sp?) by any mortal - the
fact they don´t need to sleep or eat(?)) can work as well for ANY human.
There´s got to be some secret way only known by them (and maybe it´s just
natural).
How DO they do it?? Can the secret of imortality be learned? Can humans
learn it? What would hapen then?

> > 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> > Maybe they just don't need as much food as humans do,
>
> That is certainly the attitude of the Complete Book of Elves.
>
> > maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off
starlight?
>
> This is the Runequest (Glorantha) solution: the "elves" are
> basically treants, and thus photosynthetic. My problem with this is that
> elves are just too short compared to oak trees for this to be viable.
> However, consider the following idea: elves get some or most of their
> sustenance *directly from mebhaighl*. No need for realm spells or
> anything, just the need to live in areas where there's a lot of magical
> energy just being there and very slowly oozing off into the elves. This
> explanation also does a decent job for immortality, and not needing a
> bloodline to cast magic. One consequence of this is that if an elf goes
> to a province with a magic potential less than a certain level, they have
> to eat more. Maybe in a province with zero magic potential, they have to
> eat more than humans do to maintain the superior vitality!
>
> --Ryan
>

I like this explanation A LOT!!
Elves get their sustenance, ability to cast true magic (and why not the
imortality?) directly from mebhaighl. They´re in tune with Nature - they
ARE sentinent Nature.
The question is: can humans learn their secret? I say yes, but... the elves
won´t EVER teach them.( The potential for misuse of these powers by humans
are HUGE).


Just my 2 escudos
MANTA
ip209007@ip.pt

P.S. What do you guys think about the bearded elf onpg 68 of the Rjurik
Highlands? Is it swiched with Storm Holtson on the next page or don´t the
guys at TSR explained the basics to the artist? (He´s got some fine art but
that´s a huge flaw!)