Investiture (and of course alig

[BenandAmy]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Even Sørgjerd
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 6:04 AM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Investiture (and of course alignment)


>During to endless debate rotating around the topic of Alignment, I think
>that a major point being left out is the problem involving the divine
>transfer of power.
>
>What god would truly support one regent stripping another for his powers.
>IMO it is a very BAD (I like that word) to invest yourself as the regent of
>a province that is not really yours.
>
>Let me give you an example. Our dear Prince of Avanil has just occupied a
>province i southern Tuornen. They had not been to cooperative lately, and
>beeing weak from the resent fighting with Alamie he thought it appropriate
>to teach them a lesson. What happens next is that some slimy priset from
the
>Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn comes along and invests mr. Avan as the
>new regent. As I see it, this it not a particullary righteous thing to do.
>But if this is true then no true regent in Birthright would be Lawful.
>
>Even



Hmmm... I don't know if Haelyn would have a problem with that---he
grants spells to evil priests after all...

Anyway, I think from the recent topics dominating this list, it's pretty
clear that nobody in BR can or does act in an *always* good or *always* evil
way. There will always be reasons to justify doing anything if we try hard
enough! Maybe Avan would try to convince himself that the people of that
province are going through tough times and need good leadership to guide
them through the struggle. If he proclaims it loud enough, it might even
work. (Hitler's tanks met cheering crowds when the entered the Czech
Sudetenland...)

[Gary V. Foss]

Even Sørgjerd wrote:

> During to endless debate rotating around the topic of Alignment, I think
> that a major point being left out is the problem involving the divine
> transfer of power.
>
> What god would truly support one regent stripping another for his powers.
> IMO it is a very BAD (I like that word) to invest yourself as the regent of
> a province that is not really yours.
>
> Let me give you an example. Our dear Prince of Avanil has just occupied a
> province i southern Tuornen. They had not been to cooperative lately, and
> beeing weak from the resent fighting with Alamie he thought it appropriate
> to teach them a lesson. What happens next is that some slimy priset from the
> Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn comes along and invests mr. Avan as the
> new regent. As I see it, this it not a particullary righteous thing to do.
> But if this is true then no true regent in Birthright would be Lawful.

Expanding one's realm isn't a lawful thing to do? I don't see how his lawful
alignment would necessarily prevent Avan from taking a province from another
regent, especially since he is lawful neutral. Taking a province from another
ruler could be a particularly lawful thing to do depending on the
circumstances. In the example you give, I think Avan could easily justify
himself by stating he was "returning the rule of law" to the province previously
under the uncooperative/weak control of Tuornen.

Gary

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8yvind_]

On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Even Sørgjerd wrote:

> What god would truly support one regent stripping another for his powers.
> IMO it is a very BAD (I like that word) to invest yourself as the regent of
> a province that is not really yours.

Well, I would say that his depends upon the situation. And wether an area
rightfully belongs to you is something that can be discussed. Remember
that during the Middle Ages, the nobles had pact with their vassals.
The nobles would defend the commoners from other nobles. If the noble
could not stick to this deal, the deal was void. In that case I would say
that investiture to another liege would be Lawful. But somebody with a
Good alignment would forgive the noble easier, and perhaps give him
another chance (though this depends upon the 'crime' of the noble).

> Let me give you an example. Our dear Prince of Avanil has just occupied a
> province i southern Tuornen. They had not been to cooperative lately, and
> beeing weak from the resent fighting with Alamie he thought it appropriate
> to teach them a lesson. What happens next is that some slimy priset from the
> Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn comes along and invests mr. Avan as the
> new regent. As I see it, this it not a particullary righteous thing to do.
> But if this is true then no true regent in Birthright would be Lawful.

Well, in this case we come up with something called politics. Nobody would
say that this was a Good act. But since the Duke of Tuornen clearly can't
defend his vassals then another lord can Lawfully take the other province
under his protection. And we must remember that Darien Avan is of Lawful
Neutral alignment, so there must be reason like this behind his actions.

Also such an action may have been justified by that Avan needed the
resources of that province to be able to hold up his vassalage with his
own vassals. Many more people are dependent upon Avan than the Duke of
Tuornen.

Of course, in your example, the WIT would be in some trouble, since the
church has it's main offices in the capital of Tuornen. And therefore
would perhaps experience some political difficulties that they might
avoid. Then again Avan might offer them some protection (even GASP! bribe
the church into the investiture act).


Oyvind Gronnesby

[Tim Nutting]

On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Even Sørgjerd wrote:

Then again Avan might offer them some protection (even GASP! bribe the church
into the investiture act).
_______________
OMG! You mean that the Lawful Evil clerics of Haelyn might be susceptible to
bribery!?

hehehehe...

This is so great. I enjoy dealing with, IMC, the priest that is having a hissy
fit because Haelyn allows LE priests to worship him, and gain spells. It's
such a departure from the Realms and Mystara and Oerth to have gods that really
don't get involved to awful much in the world they support.

I think part of their aloof nature can be explained by the larger world they
have found themselves a part of. In inheriting the portfolios of their
"parents", these new gods have also inherited the old homes and political
intrigues of the Outer Planes. It's kind of funny to imagine a petitioner on
Mount Celestia in the realm of Haelyn being Lawful Evil...

Tim Nutting

[Kenneth Gauck]

Even, you have raised an interesting point. By what claims or customs can
conquest be justified? However, let us not assume that players must invent
these justifications, but rather that they must be discovered in archives.
Old treaties, wills, charters might reveal that current regent holds land
which by law belong to you. The current regent's lawyers may disagree. :-)
Some claims are known to everyone: Alamie and Tournen, Diemed against
Roesone, Ilien, and Medoere. Still other claims might require adventures to
even discover: who knew the old keep of Gwylimdon housed an old chancery
archive, we were clearing out the gnoll bandits there. Its no accident that
one of the most important NPC's in the courts of my players is their
Chancellor, Justiciar, Lord of Justice, or whatever he is called.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Even Sørgjerd
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 6:01 AM


>During to endless debate rotating around the topic of Alignment, I think
>that a major point being left out is the problem involving the divine
>transfer of power.
>
>What god would truly support one regent stripping another for his powers.
>IMO it is a very BAD (I like that word) to invest yourself as the regent of
>a province that is not really yours.
>
>Let me give you an example. Our dear Prince of Avanil has just occupied a
>province i southern Tuornen. They had not been to cooperative lately, and
>beeing weak from the resent fighting with Alamie he thought it appropriate
>to teach them a lesson. What happens next is that some slimy priset from
the
>Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn comes along and invests mr. Avan as the
>new regent. As I see it, this it not a particullary righteous thing to do.
>But if this is true then no true regent in Birthright would be Lawful.
>
>Even