Time and Magic

[Sindre Berg]

Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> > The wish spell puts a horrible horrible drain on anyone casting it,
> > aging them and causing them to take to bed for 2d4 days after
> casting
> > it. I believe it was overlooked in the PHB but Limited wish ages
> the
> > caster 1 year for every 100 years of lifespan, i imagine wish (which
>
> > says it ages the caster 5 years) should read 5 years for every 100
> years
> > of lifespan, thats a LOT! I imagine that this was overlooked since
> > according to base d+d rules, only humans could reach a high enough
> level
> > to cast wish spells.
>
> > And the Gorgon isnt immortal per se, he just ages 1
> > year for every century that passes, meaning he casts that spell and
> with
> > a lifespan of around oh..we'll say 3000 years, since he got the
> ability
> > during the mid range of his life, when he casts that spell he ages
> 150
> > years, OUCH!
>
> Hmmm. I suppose I could rule this way if I were hard-pressed. I
> don't really
> get this kind of feeling off the description of the Long Life
> ability. That
> description makes it sound much more like lifespan is not being
> extended, but
> that the effects of time on aging are slowed down. It's a subtle
> distinction,
> but one that I think counters the lifespan argument.
>
> I also have a problem in that I have ruled that blood abilities are
> generally
> more powerful than spell effects. That is, if there is a conflict
> between a
> blood ability and a spell, the blood ability wins. The power of the
> gods, I
> figure, is stronger than a spell. For instance, a druid casts Charm
> Person or
> Mammal on a cat controlled by a scion with the Animal Affinity, Brenna
>
> (great). Both characters vie for control over the animal. I think
> the
> character with the blood ability wins automatically.
>
> The point is that Wish is a spell. I think blood abilities should
> have more
> effect on characters than spells, so I would probably have to rule
> that the
> Long Life blood ability takes precedence over the aging effects of the
> Wish
> spell.
>
> > Elves, value living their lives to the fullest, and while
> > it may not have MUCH of an effect on them, giving up time in their
> lives
> > is NOT something elves would enjoy doing (too much like necromancy)
> so i
> > personally would penalize any player-character elf doing this for
> bad
> > roleplay.
>
> I don't know. I admit no one wants to be in bed for 2d4 days. (Well,
> that's
> not true, I'd rather like to spend that much time in bed.) But the
> payoff is
> certainly worth it, even for elves. What's a week to an elf?
>
> > Also an interesting rule was that it takes 10 wishes to raise
> > a stat 1 point above 16.
>
> Given the relative lifespans what is 10 wishes to these folks?
>
> > With the DM's twisting the wording to grant
> > the wish in the most expedient manner possible that requires the
> least
> > amount of power expended, using wishes becomes very risky as well.
>
> Twisting the wording of a Wish is certainly an option, but how is a DM
> to twist
> the wording of a Wish used to increase an ability score? The player
> just says,
> "I wish I was more intelligent." How am I supposed to twist the
> wording of
> that wish in a way that isn't totally and ridiculously contrived? Say
> the same
> character wanted to make the Protection from Normal Missiles spell
> that he had
> just cast upon himself permanent. He would just say "I wish the
> Protection
> from Normal Missiles spell I just cast upon myself was permanent."
> That's
> pretty difficult to twist the wording on.
>
> Gary
>
> ****
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>
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> My old DM required that every casting of any wish spell (Minor, Limited,
Full) had to be said with an IC rhyme...then twisting gets really
easy...And it made great fun too...especially if we wanted affects like
the ones you mentioned...

- --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Sindre Berg]

einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no wrote:

> >Speaking of time. I noticed something a while back during a
> conversation
> with a
> >guy playing the High Mage Aelies in a PBeM. We were discussing his
> plans for
> >his character and I mentioned that if someone with the Long Life
> blood
> ability
> >at Great strength could reach 18th level of magic use, he would
> become as
> near
> >to demi-god powerful as is imaginable for a PC. Normally, a
> character ages 5
> >years when casting a wish spell (it's unclear effect casting spells
> that
> cause
> >aging would have on a BR elf , but I'm inclined to think no aging
> effects
> would
> >occur) so he could potentially cast 20 Wishes and only age a year.
> Such a
> >character could cast Wish spells then and raise his abilities to
> godlike
> >proportions. He could cast spells on his person and Wish them
> permanent. He
> >could wish himself all kinds of things and pay a price much less
> stringent
> than
> >the rules intended.
>
> DMs call =) If someone tries to use loopholes in my campaign I'd be a
> little nasty.
> (but, if a mage *wants* to spend a year in his castle casting wishes
> he can
> do so)
> I'd attempt to twart his words as much as possible.
> AD&D is not made for characters spending weeks/years honing their
> skills, but
> rather for characters that adventure nearly constantly.
> Actually... I never think I've ever had time to relax in the campaigns
> I'm
> participating in. heh...
>
> >This is an interesting loophole in the game. How does casting Wish
> spells
> age
> >immortal elves? Does the blood ability Long Life reduce the aging
> effects of
> >such spells? I don't have my copy of the Gorgon's cardsheet handy at
> the
> >moment, so I don't recall if he is of high enough level as a mage (if
> that
> >version of him is used) to cast Wishes, but if so he is pretty near
> unstoppable,
> >except by a being with similar abilities.
> >
> >Of course, such a person would still have to rest the 2d4 days
> required per
> >casting of the spell, but one of the aspects of the BR setting is
> that
> time is
> >often dealt with in a different manner. A player could spend a month
> casting
> >Wish spells and not terribly disadvantage himself. Besides, we are
> talking
> >about immortal characters here, so what is a year or two to them?
> 2d4 is an
> >average of 5 days bed rest per casting, so that's six Wishes a month.
>
>

Well first of all even in my friends (now finished) pretty monty haul FR
campaign none of the mages got anything higher than Limited Wish in
their spellbooks (we did get like 12 scrolls or something in total),
this is an important way of stopping this. Never let the players get
their hands on the wish spell. Failing that you can take a look at how
the Limited Wish spell handles aging (1 year, PER 100 years of normal
life-span), and last who said Long Life works on spells at all!! It is
a combination set up for DM determination. And as Seb said the wording
is critical, and the DM is after all GOD (not a little puny demi-God :)

> >
> >As long as I'm on the subject of time and magic, I've also suggested
> in a
> PBeM I
> >was playing in that a few magic wielding regents get together and
> begin
> casting
> >Polymorph Other spells on horses, changing them into pegasi. A
> couple of
> mages
> >acting together could create enough magical mounts to outfit a unit
> of flying
> >cavalry in only a few weeks. Again, this is not a lot of time in BR
> terms, and
> >could lead to some pretty nasty situations.
>
> Heh... oups, try to find those 10 (?) 7th level mages needed.
> *and* cooperate. I'd think such a feat impossible.
> But if one takes the Emerald Queen for example, she could cast 4
> 'polymorph
> other' per day. = 120 per month. And I think a cavalry war card needs
> 50
> horses or something. (oups.. I've never thought of this idea before).
> And she would still be able to take normal actions, as it only takes a
>
> couple of minutes each day to polymorph them.
>

Well it takes a few minutes per spell + 8 hours of good rest AND 1hour
and 20min per Polymorph any Object memorized...

> >Because of the way time is used in the domain rules portion of the
> game
> the low
> >magic emphasis of BR could be effectively neutralized. Should mages
> actually
> >begin casting the kinds of spells I'm talking about it could alter
> the
> face of
> >Cerilia.
>
> Hmm.. restrict the power of wish then. Anyway, 18th level character
> *does*
> have an impact on the world, no matter what world we are talking
> about.
>
> >Well, what do you folks think? Am I nuts or could this kind of thing
> easily
> >happen?
>
> Nope! I'd say it won't happen.
> If he tries to do that, the Magian or the Gorgon would have taken
> notice of
> him, and would prolly try to slay such a character before their power
> brgun
> to rival their own.
>

BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
can remember !

> Siebharrin the Lich
>
> *******************
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> - --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Gary V. Foss]

Sindre Berg wrote:

> Well first of all even in my friends (now finished) pretty monty haul FR
> campaign none of the mages got anything higher than Limited Wish in
> their spellbooks (we did get like 12 scrolls or something in total),
> this is an important way of stopping this. Never let the players get
> their hands on the wish spell.

In the BR setting, players can often pick up a PC at a very high level. In my
pen and paper campaign, everyone starts with a new, 1st level character, but
the conversation that I cited at the beginning of this thread was with a player
in a PBeM who was playing the High Mage Aelies.

> Failing that you can take a look at how
> the Limited Wish spell handles aging (1 year, PER 100 years of normal
> life-span), and last who said Long Life works on spells at all!! It is
> a combination set up for DM determination. And as Seb said the wording
> is critical, and the DM is after all GOD (not a little puny demi-God :)

I never really agreed with the rationalization for that change in the 2nd
edition description of the Limited Wish spell. It makes the effects of the
spell different depending upon race, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The spell requires more power for an elf than it does for a human? It must
since it is aging him ten years and only aging a human a year.

I know the argument in response to this is going to be that the physical
effects of the spell are just represented by aging. It causes relatively the
same amount of drain upon an elf as on a human, and should be represented in
the same way physically, but I don't buy that. Elves live longer as part of
their nature. To me, when it comes to aging, elves are endurance runners. The
amount of energy that it takes for someone to run ten miles is the same for a
jogger or a non-jogger, but the race is going to take more out of the
non-jogger than the jogger, because of their physical attributes. Same thing
for elves and aging.

> Well it takes a few minutes per spell + 8 hours of good rest AND 1hour
> and 20min per Polymorph any Object memorized...

I thought it was 10 min/level of the spell to be memorized. That would make it
40 minutes of study per casting, plus a night's sleep. (We can't really count
sleep as work here can we?) The casting time of the spell is under a minute,
so if someone hired an 11th level wizard to cast three Polymorph Other spells
on a daily basis, his workday would be just over two hours. Only people who
work for the government have it that easy in Western society.

> BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
> can remember !

I grant you that there are only a few. Even lower level guys can be pretty
powerful using some of the methods described on this thread.

Gary

[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>BTW: How many 18th level mages are there ? Only the Magian as far as I
>can remember !

Ohh.. The Magian, Grand Mistress Llaeddra of Lluabraight and
Siebharrinn "the Lich" of Lychgate...

And those dragons. (I think the vos dragon source-regent has
the abilities of a 21st, but I'm not sure)
Thats the ones I know about.

Siebharrin the Lich =)

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
>
> > For my own contributions consider the possibilities of invisible
> > stalkers (or demons/
> > other creatures for the lower planes). Conjure a stalker and tell it to
> > wait for 1
> > week, cooperate with the other stalkers you will summon in that period,
> > and then go
> > and assinate another regent (or worse yet, kidnap for bloodtheft). If
> > you can cast one
> > invisible stalker spell/day, that is 7,8 HD, flying, invisible, silent
> > assasins who
> > are also faultless trackers. Equip them with poisoned short swords to
> > make the kill
> > even more certain. You could kill regents, whole courts full of
> > functionaries, or even
> > just set them loose in someone elses province with orders to kill as
> > many
> > people/goblins/elves/halflings as possible in a month. An individual
> > stalker could
> > massacre a whole town in an evening. As a group, without organized
> > magical defenses,
> > they would be nearly invincible.
>
> Just another reason why any Anuirean politico wanting to play the "game of
> thrones" had better get himself one damn good court wizard he can trust.
> Of course, Mr. Evil Wizard had better be fully prepaired for the soon-to-
> ensue war in which the main goal will be returning home with his head on a
> pike, or if that is impossible, the complete ruination of all of his
> Source holdings. Equal and opposite reactions, and all. Plus, putting a
> price on someone's head is perfectly acceptable in defence of a realm for
> a Lawful Good regent.

One of the scary aspects of the scenario Pieter suggested with Invisible
Stalkers is that it would be pretty difficult to trace the exact source of the
summoned creatures. They are, after all, invisible air elementals who leave no
footprints to retrace. If one were going to send these monsters in to wreak
havoc in another realm the spellcaster could tell them to travel 100 miles into
enemy territory before beginning their killing spree. According to the spell
they will go "hundreds or thousands of miles away" to accomplish their mission.

I grant you that a nation who already has enmity with a rival mage would
probably have no problem figuring out the source of the monsters, but what if
it weren't that obvious? What if Isealie wanted to attack Mhoried? Or the
Chimaeron wanted to attack Binsada?

One stumbling block to this scenario, however, is the movement rate of
Invisible Stalkers. They fly at a rate of 12. That's pretty slow. I don't
think Invisible Stalkers have to sleep or rest, so they could pretty much
travel 24 hours a day, but I believe that would still limit them to 57.6 miles
of travel a day. [An unencumbered man (movement 12) travels 24 miles in 10
hours (PHB 158) so a Stalker would travel 2.4 times that distance.] Of course,
this problem could be addressed by having the mage teleport to within a few
miles of his target if he also had access to that spell.

Carefully wording their instructions would probably be quite helpful, as would
having a good plan for the monsters to follow. If one wanted to have the
Stalkers perform a kidnapping, one could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when
the victim is in deep asleep, beat him into unconsciousness if necessary, but
one way or another grapple with him and fly out a window with him in tow. Fly
up several hundred feet and wait for him to stop struggling (which he would or
risk falling) and then fly on back "home" with him. How is anyone going to
follow? They probably can't see him in the dark of night, but even if they
could the spellcaster could give the Stalkers a Potion of Invisibility and
instruct them to pour it down their target's gullet, making him invisible long
enough for them to get out of eyesight.

Many regents are going to have some sort of magical protection to defend
themselves against this kind of attack, but many of the less magically inclined
would not. Even for those that were protected, what about their servants?
What if a spellcaster were to kidnap the Minister of State for some nation
using Invisible Stalkers and then question him by casting a few Hypnotism,
Suggestion and Charm Person spells? I always thought the telepathic link
created by the Domination spell in combination with its charming effects would
be a pretty effective method of interrogation....

Speaking of Charm spells, it is pretty clear from the PHB that someone can be
under the effects of more than one type of charm at a time. Does that mean the
same spellcaster could cast Charm Person on the same creature several times in
order to assure he would remain charmed should one of the spells wear off? If
only one Charm Person is possible per spellcaster, could the same spellcaster
use several different charm type spells in order to do the same thing? Could
he use Charm Person, Charm Monster and Domination in order to triple up his
protection?

As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB? I
would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he? Since he gets
four 5th level spells he could do this twice in the space of only a few
minutes. He would, of course, face the possibility of getting trapped in
stone, etc. but that's still not a bad payoff for such a small amount of
effort. In my campaign I have made GBs worth 10,000gp and they weigh 1,000
pounds, so this is not as much of a problem, but I thought I'd bring it up for
the sake of pure contentiousness. :)

Gary

[Pieter A de Jong]

Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> >
> > > For my own contributions consider the possibilities of invisible
> > > stalkers (or demons/
> > > other creatures for the lower planes). Conjure a stalker and tell it to
> > > wait for 1
> > > week, cooperate with the other stalkers you will summon in that period,
> > > and then go
> > > and assinate another regent (or worse yet, kidnap for bloodtheft). If
> > > you can cast one
> > > invisible stalker spell/day, that is 7,8 HD, flying, invisible, silent
> > > assasins who
> > > are also faultless trackers. Equip them with poisoned short swords to
> > > make the kill
> > > even more certain. You could kill regents, whole courts full of
> > > functionaries, or even
> > > just set them loose in someone elses province with orders to kill as
> > > many
> > > people/goblins/elves/halflings as possible in a month. An individual
> > > stalker could
> > > massacre a whole town in an evening. As a group, without organized
> > > magical defenses,
> > > they would be nearly invincible.
> >
> > Just another reason why any Anuirean politico wanting to play the "game of
> > thrones" had better get himself one damn good court wizard he can trust.
> > Of course, Mr. Evil Wizard had better be fully prepaired for the soon-to-
> > ensue war in which the main goal will be returning home with his head on a
> > pike, or if that is impossible, the complete ruination of all of his
> > Source holdings. Equal and opposite reactions, and all. Plus, putting a
> > price on someone's head is perfectly acceptable in defence of a realm for
> > a Lawful Good regent.
>
> One of the scary aspects of the scenario Pieter suggested with Invisible
> Stalkers is that it would be pretty difficult to trace the exact source of the
> summoned creatures. They are, after all, invisible air elementals who leave no
> footprints to retrace. If one were going to send these monsters in to wreak
> havoc in another realm the spellcaster could tell them to travel 100 miles into
> enemy territory before beginning their killing spree. According to the spell
> they will go "hundreds or thousands of miles away" to accomplish their mission.
>
Not to mention that defense (from fortified positions) is usually much
easier
than offense. A mage after achieving a stalemate, with his own troops
supported by
magical defenses could easily start to chip away at an enemies command
structure
with this kind of a method.

> I grant you that a nation who already has enmity with a rival mage would
> probably have no problem figuring out the source of the monsters, but what if
> it weren't that obvious? What if Isealie wanted to attack Mhoried? Or the
> Chimaeron wanted to attack Binsada?
>
I suspect that it might get difficult even for nations that know they
have a
mage that is hostile to them. All you know is that the regent
dissapeared in
the middle of the night! Usually, most regents have more than one set
of
enemies.

> One stumbling block to this scenario, however, is the movement rate of
> Invisible Stalkers. They fly at a rate of 12. That's pretty slow. I don't
> think Invisible Stalkers have to sleep or rest, so they could pretty much
> travel 24 hours a day, but I believe that would still limit them to 57.6 miles
> of travel a day. [An unencumbered man (movement 12) travels 24 miles in 10
> hours (PHB 158) so a Stalker would travel 2.4 times that distance.] Of course,
> this problem could be addressed by having the mage teleport to within a few
> miles of his target if he also had access to that spell.
>
Isn't their a multiplier on the movement rate depending on the terrain
you are
travelling over? I believe that the multiplier is greater than one for
good
roads. As a DM, I would consider flying movement to be over good roads
in all
but the worst weather conditions. This might slightly improve the range
of such
a tactic.


> Carefully wording their instructions would probably be quite helpful, as would
> having a good plan for the monsters to follow. If one wanted to have the
> Stalkers perform a kidnapping, one could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when
> the victim is in deep asleep, beat him into unconsciousness if necessary, but
> one way or another grapple with him and fly out a window with him in tow. Fly
> up several hundred feet and wait for him to stop struggling (which he would or
> risk falling) and then fly on back "home" with him. How is anyone going to
> follow? They probably can't see him in the dark of night, but even if they
> could the spellcaster could give the Stalkers a Potion of Invisibility and
> instruct them to pour it down their target's gullet, making him invisible long
> enough for them to get out of eyesight.
>
> Many regents are going to have some sort of magical protection to defend
> themselves against this kind of attack, but many of the less magically inclined
> would not. Even for those that were protected, what about their servants?
> What if a spellcaster were to kidnap the Minister of State for some nation
> using Invisible Stalkers and then question him by casting a few Hypnotism,
> Suggestion and Charm Person spells? I always thought the telepathic link
> created by the Domination spell in combination with its charming effects would
> be a pretty effective method of interrogation....
>
> Speaking of Charm spells, it is pretty clear from the PHB that someone can be
> under the effects of more than one type of charm at a time. Does that mean the
> same spellcaster could cast Charm Person on the same creature several times in
> order to assure he would remain charmed should one of the spells wear off? If
> only one Charm Person is possible per spellcaster, could the same spellcaster
> use several different charm type spells in order to do the same thing? Could
> he use Charm Person, Charm Monster and Domination in order to triple up his
> protection?
>
> As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB? I
> would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
> level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
> nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he? Since he gets
> four 5th level spells he could do this twice in the space of only a few
> minutes. He would, of course, face the possibility of getting trapped in
> stone, etc. but that's still not a bad payoff for such a small amount of
> effort. In my campaign I have made GBs worth 10,000gp and they weigh 1,000
> pounds, so this is not as much of a problem, but I thought I'd bring it up for
> the sake of pure contentiousness. :)
>
In my own campaign, gold bars don't actually exist. They are used as a
unit of
measurement, but are composed of actual currency (ie. chests of coin,
and in some
cases, gems and jewelry).

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:26 AM


>Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>
>[...] If one wanted to have the [Invisible] Stalkers perform a kidnapping,
one
>could tell them to wait until 2:00AM when the victim is in deep asleep,
beat him
>into unconsciousness if necessary, but one way or another grapple with him
>and fly out a window with him in tow. [....]
>
>As long as I'm on the subject of spellcasting, what is the weight of a GB?
I
>would think it would not be more that 200 lbs. If that is the case, a 12th
>level mage (who can teleport with up to 600 pounds) could teleport into a
>nation's treasury and teleport himself out with 3GB couldn't he?

In general I prefer a low magic world. Maids do not clean with cantrips,
nor do chefs enhance the flavor of food with spells. However, historically,
the wealthy did attempt to obtain charms, fetishes, wards, glyphs, &c, &c to
protect themselves from this kind of thing. If historical people invested
in such protections, NPC's are hardly going to over-look them. I would
advise players attempting to do this that its not going to work without
specifically identifying the wards and charms in place and countering them.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net