Mages and magicians on the batt

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Ressearching that ammount of scrolls and magical items is going to cost
a lot, not to mention that the components you need might be a bit rare.
The costs only rise if the wizard is going to make a lot of scrolls of
the same spell. What if you need a whisker of a hell hound for the inkt
of the scroll of fireball? Getting hell hounds is not easy, is it? Why
else do you think magical items are so rare?

When I take a look at the published adventures of Birthright (granted
that are not many) the main villains do not have access to huge ammounts
of scrolls. Even when they are working for a mage like the Serpent, the
villain gets only one scroll to make the plot possible at all (Cities of
Sun boxed set). So the component thing probably is a big limiting factor
in the production of scrolls. Though in this case the Serpent might have
feared to be double crossed by his agent.

As a side note, do you use priest battle spells? The mass sanctuary
spell is a very good defense against a wizard. The wizard needs to make
a save to even attack this protected unit. A very easy way to approach
the unit you want. Ask my players they saw a trap being destroyed
because there archers could not take advantage of the akward situation
the enemy was placed in due to the trap. Since that day the temple has
become very important for the ruler.

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> Ressearching that ammount of scrolls and magical items is going to cost
> a lot, not to mention that the components you need might be a bit rare.
> The costs only rise if the wizard is going to make a lot of scrolls of
> the same spell. What if you need a whisker of a hell hound for the inkt
> of the scroll of fireball? Getting hell hounds is not easy, is it? Why
> else do you think magical items are so rare?

Changing the material components required for casting spells/creating scrolls
is certainly an option, though I've always felt like it was "cheating" on the
DM's part. I'm not above a little change now and again, but I really feel it
is unfair to change things in midstream for the players. I know I resent it
when I come up with a solution that I feel is an innovative use of my
character's abilities and the DM overrules it by changing a spell description
or altering some previously accepted aspect of the game. To me, mages get
their spells with the components as is. If I want to change something I have
to change it before the player comes up with a way to manipulate it, because I
feel that is just fair play. If a player was able to outsmart me, I figure,
his character was able to outsmart the NPCs I threw at him.

As for the cost of creating scrolls, in my campaign it costs 100gp/level of the
spell being transcribed, so it can get quite expensive. This is basically the
same cost as for potion creation, based upon the xp value of the item being
created. In the example of Fireball and Cloudkill scrolls I cited, it would
cost the PC 3,000gp/month to write them. That's pretty cheap all things
considered. Less than the cost of a single infantry unit.

> When I take a look at the published adventures of Birthright (granted
> that are not many) the main villains do not have access to huge ammounts
> of scrolls. Even when they are working for a mage like the Serpent, the
> villain gets only one scroll to make the plot possible at all (Cities of
> Sun boxed set). So the component thing probably is a big limiting factor
> in the production of scrolls. Though in this case the Serpent might have
> feared to be double crossed by his agent.

I've always felt the lack of one-shot magic items like potions and scrolls was
something of an oversight on the part of the writers/designers of the game. I
know why they did it that way, they were trying to preserve game balance, etc.
In non-BR campaigns, the kinds of things I've described here and in the "Time
and Magic" thread don't seem to happen much because the PCs adventure so much
of the time. The rest of the party isn't going to want to sit around waiting
for the mage to spend a month writing spells. In BR the fighters, thieves and
priests have plenty of time consuming things to do running their respective
holdings, so it is less of a problem for a mage to spend some time creating
magic items.

My solution to this whole dilemma would not be to make a change to the rules,
but rather to use "good for the goose, good for the gander" type reasoning. If
PCs are going to go onto a battlefield with scrolls and wands then NPCs will
too. This might turn a large scale combat pretty quickly into a conflict
between these two powerful characters, but isn't that the way it should be? A
powerful mage is an awesome force on a battlefield. Two of them would be even
more awesome, and would change a battlefield into a truly hellish place to be
in which soldiers were not only being hacked to bits, but also blown to bits
and choked to death by clouds of poisonous gas.... Pretty scary.

> As a side note, do you use priest battle spells? The mass sanctuary
> spell is a very good defense against a wizard. The wizard needs to make
> a save to even attack this protected unit. A very easy way to approach
> the unit you want. Ask my players they saw a trap being destroyed
> because there archers could not take advantage of the akward situation
> the enemy was placed in due to the trap. Since that day the temple has
> become very important for the ruler.

I don't use priestly battlespells for basically the same logic. A priest could
use chant and prayer to "bless" an entire unit, raising their stats during a
battle. Plus, priests can actually start putting spells on scrolls at a lower
level than mages (7th) and it takes them fewer xp to get to that level, so they
would be even more likely to kick back for a few weeks to create scrolls. At
9th they can start making healing potions, and I think that would take up a
pretty good amount of time too.

There are also LOTS more priests running around than mages. The numbers I've
been using say that there is 1 mage for every 10,000 or so Cerilians. Priests
probably represent about 1 in 50 to 200 Cerilians, which is quite a bit more,
so the amount of priestly scrolls and potions out there should be similarly
higher.

Gary

[Pieter Sleijpen]

When I mentioned new spell components I was talking about the components
for the magical inkt. I was not revering to the normal spells needed to
cast the spell, that would indeed be unfair. They also need special
paper for scrolls and those things are just not in unlimited suply. When
someone starts to create dozens of scrolls the price is going to raise
above the normal price. I do agree that they should be used somewhat
more often then they are used now. As for spellcasting priests, they are
in my campaigns not much more common than wizard. Most of the clergy are
0lvl humans or plain fighters (or thiefs - depending on the deity). In
my idea deities are quite picky on whom they trust with their magic.

Researching spells by the way costs an awful lot of time and the thing
goes for magical items. When the wizard is a regent he does not have
that time. There will always be a irritating rival to come knocking on
the door and stealing some sources while you were not paying attention.

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> When I mentioned new spell components I was talking about the components
> for the magical inkt. I was not revering to the normal spells needed to
> cast the spell, that would indeed be unfair. They also need special
> paper for scrolls and those things are just not in unlimited suply. When
> someone starts to create dozens of scrolls the price is going to raise
> above the normal price. I do agree that they should be used somewhat
> more often then they are used now. As for spellcasting priests, they are
> in my campaigns not much more common than wizard. Most of the clergy are
> 0lvl humans or plain fighters (or thiefs - depending on the deity). In
> my idea deities are quite picky on whom they trust with their magic.

Oh, the ink. You're quite right. Sorry, I misunderstood.

Making the components needed to make the magical inks used to write scrolls
would be a good way of limiting the number of them that could be created. If
one wanted to go that way it'd work, especially since the books leave all that
stuff up to the DM. I'm inclined to give the PCs a break or two in the area
for two reasons. Firest, because I don't use battlespells. Second, because of
the nature of my campaign.

A lot of the adventures in my campaigns focus on finding some sort of magical
component(s) or items, so the players are used to having to hunt things like
that up. If a mage wanted to create all those scrolls I'd make him go through
an adventure or two in order to find the right materials to make the ink. The
players in my campaign recognize how valuable these items are, so everyone goes
on the adventures to gather them up under the assumption that they will be used
to everyone's benefit.

I don't make it too terribly difficult to create those scrolls, however. Paper
is expensive, but relatively easy to buy and the magical feathers needed to
make quills to write scrolls just seem to come along pretty easily. The
players run into harpies or griffons or some other magical winged creature with
feathers often enough that those things are in ready supply. The worst cast
scenario for this aspect of scroll creation is that they have to use inferior
materials which could lower their chance of success 10% or so.

> Researching spells by the way costs an awful lot of time and the thing
> goes for magical items. When the wizard is a regent he does not have
> that time. There will always be a irritating rival to come knocking on
> the door and stealing some sources while you were not paying attention.

In the case of landed wizard regents this certainly seems to be the case.
Wizards who do not control whole provinces, or those who don't control sources,
however, should have much less problem with that sort of thing. My campaign is
centered in and around Aerenwe, which means the mages would have to compete
with Aglondier and Aelies if they wanted to control sources, and they aren't
anxious to do that. There has been a little discussion of them going off to
some northern land where the sources are ripe for the picking, but they are
pretty content so far remain peripheral to the political scene and either do
research or create scrolls while the other members of the party (who control
holdings) engage in politics. Despite my efforts to make becoming regents more
appealing to mages, they haven't taken the bait. Controlling sources is often
more dangerous than not controlling them, because it draws so much attention to
the mage, so they don't see as much of a need to do so right now.

Oh, well. Maybe they'll go for it when they get a little higher in level and
feel they can compete with some of the more powerful mages....

Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> When I mentioned new spell components I was talking about the components
> for the magical inkt. I was not revering to the normal spells needed to
> cast the spell, that would indeed be unfair. They also need special
> paper for scrolls and those things are just not in unlimited suply. When
> someone starts to create dozens of scrolls the price is going to raise
> above the normal price. I do agree that they should be used somewhat
> more often then they are used now. As for spellcasting priests, they are
> in my campaigns not much more common than wizard. Most of the clergy are
> 0lvl humans or plain fighters (or thiefs - depending on the deity). In
> my idea deities are quite picky on whom they trust with their magic.

Oh, the ink. You're quite right. Sorry, I misunderstood.

Making the components needed to make the magical inks used to write scrolls
hard to find would be a good way of limiting the number of them that could be
created. If one wanted to go that way it'd work, especially since the books
leave all that stuff up to the DM. I'm inclined to give the PCs a break or two
in the area for two reasons. Firest, because I don't use battlespells.
Second, because of the nature of my campaign.

A lot of the adventures in my campaigns focus on finding some sort of magical
component(s) or items, so the players are used to having to hunt things like
that up. If a mage wanted to create all those scrolls I'd make him go through
an adventure or two in order to find the right materials to make the ink. The
players in my campaign recognize how valuable these items are, so everyone goes
on the adventures to gather them up under the assumption that they will be used
to everyone's benefit.

I don't make it too terribly difficult to create those scrolls, however. Paper
is expensive, but relatively easy to buy and the magical feathers needed to
make quills to write scrolls just seem to come along pretty easily. The
players run into harpies or griffons or some other magical winged creature with
feathers often enough that those things are in ready supply. The worst cast
scenario for this aspect of scroll creation is that they have to use inferior
materials which could lower their chance of success 10% or so.

> Researching spells by the way costs an awful lot of time and the thing
> goes for magical items. When the wizard is a regent he does not have
> that time. There will always be a irritating rival to come knocking on
> the door and stealing some sources while you were not paying attention.

In the case of landed wizard regents this certainly seems to be the case.
Wizards who do not control whole provinces, or those who don't control sources,
however, should have much less problem with that sort of thing. My campaign is
centered in and around Aerenwe, which means the mages would have to compete
with Aglondier and Aelies if they wanted to control sources, and they aren't
anxious to do that. There has been a little discussion of them going off to
some northern land where the sources are ripe for the picking, but they are
pretty content so far remain peripheral to the political scene and either do
research or create scrolls while the other members of the party (who control
holdings) engage in politics. Despite my efforts to make becoming regents more
appealing to mages, they haven't taken the bait. Controlling sources is often
more dangerous than not controlling them, because it draws so much attention to
the mage, so they don't see as much of a need to do so right now.

Oh, well. Maybe they'll go for it when they get a little higher in level and
feel they can compete with some of the more powerful mages....

Gary

[Sindre Berg]

Jonathan Ingram wrote:

> At 11:04 PM 11/4/98 +0100, you wrote:
> > Of course all the extra components, possible assistants etc. are all
>
> >just effects to offset the greatly increased AoE (and of course Dmg
> due
> >to increased area), and then to maintain play balance you need the
> extra
> >stuff. Anyway what I was trying to say about "Hail of Fireballs" is
> that
> >in my campaign (theoreticly since it doesn't exist) it would be at
> least
> >a 4th level spell, probably a 5th..And then as a Mage considering
> I wouldn't allow such a spell to be created without an extensive
> amount of
> time and money (and lots and lots of saving throws vs mistakes) to be
> created. The mage would have much better luck researching a
> battlefield
> version of Delayed Fireball for use in trapping the battlefield....oh,
> did
> I mention that any mage who revealed he had such a spell would
> doubtless
> find himself fending off assassins and thieves forever? Surely the
> Gorgon
> wouldn't stand for one of his armies to be destroyed by such magic,
> not to
> mention his (or his employer's) enemy.
>

I agree totally with you on this one, that's why I'd say no mage would
research a Hail of Fireballs...It just wouldn't make sense..

> >"price" I would go for the conv. spell Cloudkill, even though Hail
> looks
> >more spectacular...But I DO beleive mages have a devastiting effect
> on
> >the battlefield. Take Caine f. inst. he can throw 2 Cloudkills and
> then
> >remove two Knight units from the game...Before he starts with his 3
> >fireballs !!! That seams rather dangerous to me...
> Seems is precisely right. Sure, he's a powerful mage. But his best
> case
> scenarios is three or four spells in a single battle, including one
> cloudkill while the enemy is approaching the unit to which he's
> attached.
> If he's lucky, his unit survives and he can then target another
> unengaged
> enemy unit that comes within range. He can use his magic to help his
> attached unit survive, of course, with Stoneskinned Army. If he's
> really
> lucky, he might take out two or even three units on the battlefield
> during
> the entire battle.
>

First of all, if a Mage can start the battle by taking out the 2
(possibly only) Knight units on the opposing side, I would possibly rule
a morale check. After all it represents the core of the enemy
army...Second by always assuring you stay a bit away from the enemy you
can easily rush around the battlefield and launching spells like a
mad-man...Caine: 4 Rain of MM, 4 Rolling Fire's, 3 Fireballs, 2 Ice
Storms 2 Cloudkills...That makes for a rather dangerous opponent.. This
not to mention that protective spells can be cast while the friendly
unit IS engaged.

> But suppose the unit to which he's attached is destroyed; he's managed
> to
> take out one enemy unit and maybe damage another. Remember, as soon as
> the
> enemy unit engages his (which is as soon as it moves into the same
> square
> and before the magic phase) he can no longer target it. If an enemy
> mage
> happens to be attached and cloudkills his attached unit, he's dead or
> at
> least in serious danger. The BEST LIKELY scenario is that he makes a
> saving
> throw and finds himself a prisoner of the enemy army. Since he's such
> a
> high level NPC, I would give him a flat change to escape of about 20%
> if he
> makes his saving throw.
>

I find the idea that major NPC's get killed by simply having the unit
they are stacked with destroyed... Especially high level NPC's. I can
imagine the scenario, where the players realise that Prince Avan is
stacked with one of his Knight units (which I find very likely, him
being a fighter and all...) and them launching a massive attack only
that unit...They kill Avan but of course loose the battle, completely
unrealistic and just plain stupid...If that unit got completely
surrounded by good units (i.e. not Levies) I would at least rule that
Avan got captured, but still I wouldn't let him die just like that...If
the PC's don't die by being stacked with units why should major NPCs ?
Taking the Cloudkill issue, Avan and Caine being of sufficient level
would only take 1d10 points of damage...And the fireball would do 10d6
(possibly) save for half to Prince Avan...

> Off the battlefield, he's a much more powerful opponent if he can
> augment
> several units. So why on earth would he take to the battlefield?
>
> I don't deny that a mage can make a difference, but it seems awfully
> risky
> to me to actually get on the battlefield when his powers can be much
> more
> effective off the battlefield through realm magic. Even a measly +1 on
>
> attack ratings for the army he supports is worth more than the one
> unit he
> can destroy with Cloudkill. Even if he can't use realm magic, he can
> prepare Fireball and Lightning Bolt scrolls to give to the less
> valuable
> magicians...
>
> I guess if the DM allows for spells to be "precast" on units (i.e.,
> before
> the battle) the mage is at his most useful. He could trap the
> battlefield,
> create illusionary units, and cast lots of Stoneskinned Army (a tough
> nut
> to crack) on a couple of core units. The rules don't make allowance
> for
> this though.
>
> If I'm the enemy and I know Caine's on the battlefield, I'll use my
> priests
> and mages/magicians to find out to which unit he's attached and hit it
>
> hard, hoping to destroy it and Caine immediately. Losing such a
> powerful
> mage's support should cause any army to at least make a morale
> check...
>

And likewise which member of a unit is his right mind would attack a
person that just singlehandedly blew up the toughest unit on your army
singlehandedly, especially when he is pointing that wooden stick at you.
After all this is BR not FR where Blooded mages demand a BIG lot of
respect. They are mysterious people you'd rather not meet in hand to
hand combat. After all who says the soldier knows that mages really
aren't up to scratch in hand to hand combat. This of course is excluding
the Invulnerability to normal weapons that Caine does have access to,
which of course means he can use his fighting abilities against the
soldier (anyone remember the morale penalty for encountering an enemy
you can't wound ??? I seems to recall it was rather big ).

> Jonathan
>
> ********
> ************************************************** ****************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> So all in all, a powerful mage on the battlefield would definately
chance the course of the battle in my campaign...

- --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Jonathan Ingram]

At 02:31 PM 11/8/98 +0100, you wrote:
>I find the idea that major NPC's get killed by simply having the unit
>they are stacked with destroyed... Especially high level NPC's. I can
Who said PC's in my game were immune to dying on the battlefield? But if
someone gets a D result against the unit, they're certainly going to be in
a world of hurt and probably going to wind up a prisoner.

I'm sure that Ghoere would love to entertain Roesone for a few seasons
while he mopped up the scattered resistance (not to mention the storm
Diemed would unleash with Roesone inconvenienced); of course, he might
spare her life in return for a fealty agreement.

Boeruine would gladly release Avan in return for his endorsement for the
Iron Throne and a fealty agreement; with Avanil in tow, reigning in
Ghoere's petty claim to the throne should be relatively easy (naturally,
with Avanil's now-subjugated forces doing most of the work). And if
Avanil's not willing to give in, Boeruine can always force investiture of
Avanil's holdings to himself and find someone else who will play along...

Jonathan