Of Divinity and Bloodlines...

[Fizz]

So, sounds like you are thinking three requirements:

Bloodline Score of ____, to be determined. Certainly over 100. 150? 200?
Bloodline Strength must be True, as this determines the purity of the line.
Character has to shed their mortal frame (ie, die).

That doesn't sound unreasonable. Very difficult, as it should be, but not so much to be out of reach by sufficiently ambitious and powerful characters.

The question i would have with the last one is how they die. At Deismaar, the explosion infused the mortals all at once- the mortal frame "died" due to the intense infusion of divine energy causing the transformation. It doesn't seem right that a character could just reach the other prerequisites, then just kill themselves in some mundane fashion. I think there needs to be a significant infusion at the moment of death.

Thoughts?


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

I agree, on all counts.

I was just thinking that the death had to involve a noble sacrifice of some kind. Or, for evil scions, perhaps the hard pursuit of some destined vengeance. Not just anyone can become a god - it has to be epic... It's not just your death that matters, but how a scion dies. Certainly not for purely selfish reasons...

That is why, for example, though he probably does not realize it, after Michael Roele died, the Gorgon has lost his chance at becoming a god...

Kinda like a fate thing... hmm, that gives me an idea.

[Sorontar]

That makes sense.

I would expect that they not only must have enough blood points and their regency must be significant, but their death must not be bloodtheft and their death must be public. From that, their death must affect the mental wellbeing of a large portion of the population - after all, you can't be a god/demigod unless people wish that you were with them, in the same way that potential Catholic saints have to be seem as the cause of miracles, not just good Catholics.

Sorontar

[Witness3]

That makes sense.

I would expect that they not only must have enough blood points and their regency must be significant, but their death must not be bloodtheft and their death must be public. From that, their death must affect the mental wellbeing of a large portion of the population - after all, you can't be a god/demigod unless people wish that you were with them, in the same way that potential Catholic saints have to be seem as the cause of miracles, not just good Catholics.

Sorontar

While a miracle should not be a difficult feat for a true 100+ bloodline, I love the idea that a scion should somehow be still alive inside people's hearts, bet it regency, songs, myths or spooky tales, to further the deification process. After all, what's the point of becoming a god if nobody worships you?

As for the death itself, I would think of 2 or 3 kinds of death, inspired by ancient Rome and greek myths:

1. The scion was so popular and famous in life that the myth and cult of his person had already surpassed the real person;
2. The scion's death was so epic that the gods are moved and make his spirit a god or a constellation (for non blooded or lesser bloodlines?);
3. The scion doesn't really die, but transcends the material plane. However, this may happen on solitary journey only, so everyone just assumes the scion died.

[masterdaorin]

Right! But we need some game mechanics around that.

So, I'm making up a Fate mechanic and rules for it...

First, let me come up with a Bloodline score threshold... unless anyone already knows how much of a score it would take to have all the blood abilities of the most varied derivation (Azrai, I think)?

[Magnus Argent]

Oh, I agree, but the point still stands that it seems to be possible. And, so, what is the threshold? I'm not so sure that it's so far out of reach that it isn't attainable... at least, no one (including the Gorgon) has realized where the goal posts really are...

My take is, that this is precisely the reason why everyone else fears the Gorgon (and the other 'great' awnsheghlien). Could the threshold really be not that far off?

On the contrary, perhaps this notion hasn't been stressed enough in Birthright...

Having a lower threshold might just crank up the tension - more-so than it being un-attainable...

Sorry if I'm a tad late to this conversation..

If one thinks in terms of 3.5th edition rules, where gods have Divine Ranks that range from 1-20, it isn't unreasonable to imagine scions as possessing small fractions of a single Divine Rank -- simply divide their bloodline strength by 100.

If one were to run with this notion, a scion with a bloodline strength of 35 would have 35% of a single Divine Rank and anyone attaining a bloodline strength of 100 would theoretically have divine power equivalent to that of a DR 1 demigod.

But raw divine energy isn't enough. The other component of becoming a god is the need to have worshipers who believe in your divinity.

The Gorgon may have acquired enough raw power to fuel an ascent to divinity but, despite his widespread infamy, he is feared as a mortal and as a monster, not as a god.

In contrast, the Serpent is actually worshiped as a god and, if rumors are true, he is actually able to grant his priests minor spells. The strength of his bloodline, combined with the faith of those who worship him, could very well be enough to grant him semi-divine status. Unfortunately (for him), the power of his divine bloodline just isn't strong enough to allow him to join the godly ranks as a true demigod.

It is also very possible, even if they managed to meet both conditions required for divine ascension, the curse inherent in all of Azrai's divine bloodlines might not permit an awnsheghlien from attaining godhood. I mean, it's called a curse for a reason, right? It could prevent such an occurrence simply by completing their transformation into a mindless beast (a fate suffered, I believe, by The Basilisk).

[masterdaorin]

Sorry if I'm a tad late to this conversation..

If one thinks in terms of 3.5th edition rules, where gods have Divine Ranks that range from 1-20, it isn't unreasonable to imagine scions as possessing small fractions of a single Divine Rank -- simply divide their bloodline strength by 100.

If one were to run with this notion, a scion with a bloodline strength of 35 would have 35% of a single Divine Rank and anyone attaining a bloodline strength of 100 would theoretically have divine power equivalent to that of a DR 1 demigod.

That's a good starting point. What 3.5 ed. supplement is that from?

But raw divine energy isn't enough. The other component of becoming a god is the need to have worshipers who believe in your divinity.

Well, BR already has this - Regency. A scion would also need to be a regent of some kind to become a god (most likely temple regent, of course).

But I think that, above all, there should also be some kind of other limitation, like has been mentioned here, some kind of sacrifice and/or fate thing.

Working on it...

[Osprey]

That's a good starting point. What 3.5 ed. supplement is that from?

Deities and Demigods

It's a pretty comprehensive "deity design" system, more thorough than anything else I've ever seen published for D&D. Years ago I read up on that system specifically to research this question (how might a scion ascend to godhood in Birthright?).

For folks' benefit, here's a breakdown of Divine Ranks from that system, with a webpage link for more info:

Divine Ranks

Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.
Rank 0

Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1-5
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6-10
Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11-15
These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16-20
Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

Source: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...sAndPowers.htm

[Osprey]

I've thought about this question for a long time, but have only now noticed the forum thread - sorry for coming late to the discussion!

After reading up on everyone's thoughts, I had a few replies and thoughts to consider from my own point of view as a long-time student of history, folklore, and mythology:

Scions are living miracle workers, many with demonstrable divine powers that may separate them from their fellows. Those with bloodmarks and public displays of such power would be the most elevated and divine to the public view, and thus the most prone to worship while still alive. The closest equivalent from Earth would be to treat scions like Living Saints, but even this is problematic because of how common divine magic ("miracles") is on Aebrynis.

On Aebrynis, faith is wildly different than on Earth, because there are blooded scions and clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and possibly other divine magic sources (such as Oracles), depending on the version of D&D one is using and integrating into the BR setting. So it's far easier to prove one's divine power in this setting than it is on Earth - and this makes Earth a pretty poor source of inspiration, where divine miracles really stand out as proof of divine favoritism or elevated status, whereas in Aebrynis well...you would stand out, but more I think as a member of an elite section of the populace, not as living saints. Clerics and other divine spellcasters cannot actually prove their powers come from deities, they just claim they do (something discussed in the BoP, and apparently debated in theological circles in Cerilia). This would make most magic-users look more similar than different to the common view, with the differences being noticeable more by presentation (clerical vestments, wizard robes, etc) than by provable means. Only other magic users, using spellcraft, detect magic, or more advanced divination, could really distinguish and educate people on the differences in magical types and sources.

So this begs the question: How good of an inspiration is Earth mythology for Birthright reality? Earth mythology/religion seems to be a lot of divinity ascribed after the fact, because stories grow with the telling and become larger than their real-life origins. I think this is the real-life reason saints, prophets, and others become (supposed) miracle workers and cult foci after they die more than while they live. After they are gone, it's a whole lot easier to convince people of the many miracles they performed than it is while folks are alive who can meet the person and test them for proof of miracles on the spot. This is just far, far different from the reality of people in the BR setting. To become a god in Birthright well...proof of miracles just wouldn't be nearly enough.

So from my point of view, sticking to the internal script of the Birthright setting seems to be the best model for examining the question of ascension to godhood, and using other D&D systems (like Deities and Demigods) or lore (like Forgotten Realms) might be other appropriate sources a DM could use (but I suspect many will not like as much for Birthright).

[Osprey]

Sorry if I'm a tad late to this conversation..

If one thinks in terms of 3.5th edition rules, where gods have Divine Ranks that range from 1-20, it isn't unreasonable to imagine scions as possessing small fractions of a single Divine Rank -- simply divide their bloodline strength by 100.

If one were to run with this notion, a scion with a bloodline strength of 35 would have 35% of a single Divine Rank and anyone attaining a bloodline strength of 100 would theoretically have divine power equivalent to that of a DR 1 demigod.

But raw divine energy isn't enough. The other component of becoming a god is the need to have worshipers who believe in your divinity.

The Gorgon may have acquired enough raw power to fuel an ascent to divinity but, despite his widespread infamy, he is feared as a mortal and as a monster, not as a god.

In contrast, the Serpent is actually worshiped as a god and, if rumors are true, he is actually able to grant his priests minor spells. The strength of his bloodline, combined with the faith of those who worship him, could very well be enough to grant him semi-divine status. Unfortunately (for him), the power of his divine bloodline just isn't strong enough to allow him to join the godly ranks as a true demigod.

It is also very possible, even if they managed to meet both conditions required for divine ascension, the curse inherent in all of Azrai's divine bloodlines might not permit an awnsheghlien from attaining godhood. I mean, it's called a curse for a reason, right? It could prevent such an occurrence simply by completing their transformation into a mindless beast (a fate suffered, I believe, by The Basilisk).

I agree with all of this as a good model to work from, and as a fan of the 3e system, like the divine ranks as a way to give some kind of measurement of divine power when comparing one deity to another.

Most Scions in this system could probably qualify as Rank 0 quasi-deities in this system, although their powers are already spelled out in the bloodline system, which would replace anything ascribed in the Deities and Demigods system.

I tend to believe that a True scion could grant spells to worshipers even while alive. It's just a question of getting folks to worship them as gods, which could happen in different ways: Cult leaders and god-kings serve as good real-life examples we might use, where proof of divine power wasn't even needed - though who's to say what miracles were manufactured by Pharoahs, Emperors, and other rulers who demanded worship - and how much did people really believe in their godhood? It's hard to know, but the medieval era in Europe - the Age of Faith - at least gives us better evidence of just how literal and deep people's faith in the miraculous could be, mostly inspired by stories and sermons, and reinforced by the clergy as authorities saying "yes this is all true, believe us as we are the ones who really know things, ye ignorant masses.").

Based on this history, the average quality of education of the masses seems to be a deciding factor in just how quick they are to believe the claims of authority figures (of any type). I use this idea to guide my thinking on how likely a given population would be to deify someone.

In Khinasi, for example, where scholarship and truth in knowledge is highly prized, it would be pretty freakin' hard to convince people to worship you as a god. In Vosgard or Rjurik, it might be easier. Anuire and Brechtur would be more mixed, depending on which realm and social class we are talking about.

I think the most likely candidates for worship while alive would be the Ershegh, if any of them actually had a True bloodline. The mystery surrounding them would be a powerful factor in leading people to believe they might actually be gods who could grant them powers and bestow miracles upon them if properly appeased and worshiped.

People like the Anuirean Emperors might also have been worshiped as living demigods if they had so chosen; I believe they chose not to because Roele set a precedent in not wanting to compete with Haelyn and so divide the faith of the Empire. Plus, you know, he was actually there at Deismaar when his brother ascended and he did not...so there is that.