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  1. #1

    AWOL Lurker Back w/Questions

    I'm looking to start up a Birthright campaign, potentially with 10+ Players. I've heard this is more common in regent/ruler based campaigns?

    I would like to stay with the original AD&D 2E Rules, but I suppose that would be a lot of bookkeeping? As far as conversions on this site, 3E looks good and 5E doesn't look bad. I will be playing on Foundry VTT, which supports all three editions beautifully. The Seeds of Wars App looks like it would help alleviate much of the keeping of books. Any opinions on editions, war rules, or SoW?

    This is all just speculation at this point, but the idea is exciting! I'd appreciate any and all help! I think I am looking for the most tools/advice to make things easier on me

  2. #2
    Strictly talking domain and warfare, there are some major differences but they're basically the same in terms of bookkeping. I'd say, Seeds of Wars would be the best choice when it comes in online management, thanks to the app. I hear that the game is 100% birthright compatible so It should be a good choice. They should have full birthright maps and data too. But ask first. Also, it should be edition-independant, so you can use your D&D of choice.

    Any other software, alas, it's really really outdated and does not really work anymore (I'm thinking birmail and the precursor to SoW made in .air).

  3. #3
    Excellent! I am leaning heavily towards Seeds of Wars app. It looks like it is excellent for bookkeeping.

    I actually came in to edit my comment to include birmail. So it is now unusable? That is a shame :/

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by unnatural 20 View Post
    Excellent! I am leaning heavily towards Seeds of Wars app. It looks like it is excellent for bookkeeping.

    I actually came in to edit my comment to include birmail. So it is now unusable? That is a shame :/
    Actually, I still prefer birmail to Seeds of War, despite the fact that it is outdated. I was disappointed to find that Seeds of War is only usable if you adopt the rules hardcoded into it. A few things are customizable but it isn't flexible enough to accommodate any ruleset but its own. And, of course, though the app is free, if you actually want to understand the rules it follows, you need to purchase their book -- and over half of the content in the book details a setting that did little to inspire me.

    I'm not sure if the app has since been updated since I last used it. I decided to cut my losses after I spending weeks populating a map with provinces and holdings and whatnot.. only to have the data get corrupted. I emailed support for assistance but never even got a response.

    If I thought I could use it for Birthright, I might have made more of an effort to get help on Discord but, frankly, I felt like the whole thing was a waste of time and money. (Yes, I did by the book. Meh.)

    Of course, that's just me. I suppose there must be those out there who think it's the best thing since string cheese.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I would agree with Magnus in that SoW is similar but also very different from a Birthright game, and using the app forces you to use the SoW rules with few modifications allowed. I found that the many rule changes also significantly change the flavor of the domain game. Some players prefer these changes, some tolerate them for the sake of having an online app to help, and some do not like them. I have mixed feelings myself, but I am just one opinion. I am currently playing in one SoW campaign in the WHFRP universe and it's fun - but I had to really get used to it being mostly not like Birthright so I could appreciate the game and setting on its own terms.

    Also, using the app as a DM running a game and editing maps is not free, it's a monthly or annual subscription service, but as a subscriber DM your players can use the app within your campaign for free.

    I have heard of several app users wanting to make an online SoW map of Cerilia, but have not heard of anyone yet completing or sharing it.

    One of the things that unfortunately forced many differences between Birthright and SoW are copyright issues. Virtually every Birthright term that is distinctly Birthright had to be changed for SoW to avoid copyright infringement, because WoTC won't license Birthright out to anyone if there is any chance a profit could be made on it by a 3rd party. It seems like they'd rather see the setting die than allow that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnus Argent
    I'm not sure if the app has since been updated since I last used it.
    There have been some fixes to the app but there is currently no budget for new features and versions of the app.

  6. #6
    Is there some sort of user's guide for birmail?

    This game will be online so any tools that work with that (Seeds of Wars or Birmail?) that can work with that would be great.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unnatural 20 View Post
    I'm looking to start up a Birthright campaign, potentially with 10+ Players. I've heard this is more common in regent/ruler based campaigns?
    I have been pondering lately why most online Birthright domain games die so quickly (within one or a few turns), and I think the main answer is simply "It's too much work for the DM."

    When I think about examples of successful RPG and Birthright campaigns, the huge majority of them have one primary factor in common: no more than 5 or 6 players at most - and even 6 is quite a lot of DM work for any RPG.

    In Birthright, you not only have to manage the game, story, and logistics for each player at both a domain and adventure level (if you are running adventures), you also have to (by some method) manage every single NPC domain that interacts with the PCs, and also calculate how other NPCs interact with those NPCs so that you don't have the nearby NPCs focusing all of their attention solely on the PCs and not on their other competition as well.

    Having the PCs be regents with overlapping or neighboring domains in the same region helps reduce the number of NPCs you will have to track, making this the pretty typical approach for a traditional Birthright tabletop regent campaign.

    Many BR games also focus more on adventure and less on domains, in which case only some or none of the PCs need to be regents, and most of the action is more detailed than domain scale.

    My best advice (as a veteran BR DM) is that if you want to give full attention to your players, and especially if you also want to run adventures for them like a tabletop game would, then start with fewer players and see if you make a good game of that first. If you do that for a while and feel like you can enlarge the game or start a bigger one with more players at the beginning, then go for it!

  8. #8
    This is excellent advice and quite what I was looking for!

    I was thinking of running the "adventuring" portion of the game much like a West Marches type game. With several players. Perhaps you are right htough and I should start small. I was hoping to find some online tools so it wouldn't have to be all pencil and paper

    brmail sounds like it might be too old to be used? Seeds of Wars sounds to different/not as good as the original Realm rules?

  9. #9
    (Odd my original post vanished! Maybe it was because I included a link?)

    I was thinking of maybe running the adventure portion as a West Marches type game and maybe the Realm management by Discord or Forums? That may allow for more players.

    But, you are probably right. It’s been awhile since I’ve played AD&D 2E and it might be overwhelming at first.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by unnatural 20 View Post
    (Odd my original post vanished! Maybe it was because I included a link?)

    I was thinking of maybe running the adventure portion as a West Marches type game and maybe the Realm management by Discord or Forums? That may allow for more players.

    But, you are probably right. It’s been awhile since I’ve played AD&D 2E and it might be overwhelming at first.
    I thought you wanted to play domain game only, given the number of players you are recruiting. If you are playing to do the domain/adventure mix , then I fully agree with Osprey - 10 domains and 10 characters is really *a lot*. It's like the whole southernlands. good luck with that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey
    I would agree with Magnus in that SoW is similar but also very different from a Birthright game, and using the app forces you to use the SoW rules with few modifications allowed. I found that the many rule changes also significantly change the flavor of the domain game. Some players prefer these changes, some tolerate them for the sake of having an online app to help, and some do not like them. I have mixed feelings myself, but I am just one opinion. I am currently playing in one SoW campaign in the WHFRP universe and it's fun - but I had to really get used to it being mostly not like Birthright so I could appreciate the game and setting on its own terms.
    I always thought SoW was much more similar to Birthright. My bad for speaking without knowing better.

    As for BirMail, i went to the sourceforge page and it seems the program is written in Java, which gives a small chance that It may still work. I'll give a shot when I've got the time.

    As an alternative, before writing my own stuff on maptool I've used shared excel sheets on google drive and formatted output on a dedicated discord channel for logging. it's a bit messy but it's free.

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