Of Divinity and Bloodlines...

[Sorontar]

For later editions of D&D, the BRCS Chapter 2 has some pretty good revised random tables by derivation...if I do say so myself. :P
(I was the one who revised them from the 3.0 BRCS for better results, with much rarer occurrences of abilities like Long Life. I did find one error on the Azrai table the other day, though. Oops!)

Is it listed in the Errata wiki page? http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...in_Chapter_Two
If not, tell us what it is and I will add it.

Sorontar

[Osprey]

Is it listed in the Errata wiki page? http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...in_Chapter_Two
If not, tell us what it is and I will add it.

Sorontar

Yeah I tried to edit the errata but I guess I don't have permission for that page.
Here's what I tried to add:

Table 2-4b Minor Resistance (Azrai) should occur on a roll of 92-00, not 99-00.

[Malphas]

Use the Book of Regency pages 18-21 for rolling 2e bloodline abilities by derivation and strength, it will help immensely in reducing useless dice rolls.

i did. that still got me in this mess.

but yea book of regency was great just for the tables alone.i only wish they were clearer on a few points.

[masterdaorin]

Roele was a Champion at Deismaar and walked away with a True bloodline. Following the normal rules children of scions, the sons and daughters of Roele would have been born with True bloodline, as well. As would their children .. and so on and so on.

The bloodline loses its luster only if their spouse has a higher bloodline score. IIRC, when two scions have children, the kids' bloodline scores will be the the average of their parents' scores and they will inherit the bloodline derivation and strength of the parent with the greater bloodline score.

That is not true, according to a strict reading of the 2e rules.

The child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, but the strength is diluted by the weaker bloodline.

That is to say, a True scion can only every produce True offspring with another True scion - otherwise, the bloodline strength is diluted.

Hence, the reference as to why the "strict" breeding programs came into effect. We can conclude that Roele siblings married each other... and, that Roele himself married a True scion.

I agree that the 2e rules were vague - they talk as if the strength refers only to the score value, but that is not true, if you read between the lines in the bloodline strength passages at the beginning of the chapter.

Now, it doesn't say by how much the strength downgrades. Presumably, one step... (or an average between the two bloodlines).

[Fizz]

That is not true, according to a strict reading of the 2e rules.
The child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, but the strength is diluted by the weaker bloodline.
That is to say, a True scion can only every produce True offspring with another True scion - otherwise, the bloodline strength is diluted.
Hence, the reference as to why the "strict" breeding programs came into effect. We can conclude that Roele siblings married each other... and, that Roele himself married a True scion.
I agree that the 2e rules were vague - they talk as if the strength refers only to the score value, but that is not true, if you read between the lines in the bloodline strength passages at the beginning of the chapter.
Now, it doesn't say by how much the strength downgrades. Presumably, one step... (or an average between the two bloodlines).

Actually Magnus is correct. The parent with the highest score determines the strength. Yes, i realize that block on page 29 of the Core Rulebook uses "strength", but it actually means "score". You can tell that it must mean score because it refers to average and gives an example using numbers. Only the score has actual numbers.

This is explicitely clarified in Book of Regency, page 16:
When a scion has a child, that child gains a bloodline with a strength, score, and derivation that reflects those of his parents. If two scions have a child, his bloodline score is determined by averaging the scores of his parents. The child receives the bloodline strength and derivation of the parent with the highest bloodline score.

Thus you do not need both parents to have a True bloodline for the child to have a True bloodline.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Thus you do not need both parents to have a True bloodline for the child to have a True bloodline.

If that were <ahem> true, then there would still be bloodlines that would be True strength, since the direct descendants of the original hero would maintain their bloodline strength throughout the ages. Think about it.

Doyle is correct - it presents a problem the way it is presented in the BoR. And, that would support Osprey's argument that strength is much more about reputation than actual strength (score).

If that were the case, you would have True/Great bloodlines that are very weak in (score) - which seems counter-intuitive.

Thus, I maintain that by a strict reading of the original rules, while reflecting score but referring to strength, they actually also meant that strength is included vis-a-vie the score value.

There would be not point to selective breeding if the weaker bloodlines did not "dilute" the stronger bloodlines...

Think of bloodline strength this way: how close is the scion's bloodline to the original source?

The confusion arises, of course, in that original holders gained a variety of strengths - which is why score and strength are intrinsically linked... the closer the scion was to their patron dying god, the more pure juice they got...

Greater strength values only maintains the derivation of the bloodline - which makes sense, even according to your analogy of bloodlines being an "OS"... its the template by which the strength/score operate. You can separate derivation from strength (score), but you cannot separate score from strength.

This tangent is directly related to the original topic of this thread... This is why I need to know the threshold value by which one passes into true divinity...

[Fizz]

If that were <ahem> true, then there would still be bloodlines that would be True strength, since the direct descendants of the original hero would maintain their bloodline strength throughout the ages. Think about it.

Well, the Gorgon's is still True. And the Roele line was True up until Michael's death. Actually, do we know of any other families that had a True line immediately after Deismaar? I don't think there were many. Certainly not everyone who was at Deismaar received a True line.

But conversely, if the line Strength rounds down as you say, then after 1500 years, that's what ~75 generations, all the bloodlines would be tainted by now, unless every generation married into the exact same strength.

Doyle is correct - it presents a problem the way it is presented in the BoR. And, that would support Osprey's argument that strength is much more about reputation than actual strength (score).
If that were the case, you would have True/Great bloodlines that are very weak in (score) - which seems counter-intuitive.

If it's purely about reputation, then i think that actually supports my version. Roele, post Deismaar, would certainly have been considered a great man, yes? I don't think his children would have been considered lessers- The children carry Roele's bloodline, and would have been born with that same high reputation. Saying you were the "son of Roele" would have gravitas regardless of who the mother was.

Regarding the score, regents can improve their score as they rule. So the child could conceivably always catch up to what their higher-scored parent was (or even exceed it) once they take control of the domain and rule it. So the averaging does not always have to be downward trend.

Thus, I maintain that by a strict reading of the original rules, while reflecting score but referring to strength, they actually also meant that strength is included vis-a-vie the score value.

I disagree, and that's why BoR clarified it.

There would be not point to selective breeding if the weaker bloodlines did not "dilute" the stronger bloodlines...

You can still have dilution. When i referred to the child ruling-up his bloodline score earlier, that's obviously easier when you start with a higher score. So choosing stronger lines for your mate would still be desirable. The incentive is still there in either case. A great line marrying a tainted line is diluted due to the score. And the lower score means they likely have fewer blood abilities.

I think dilution would be a bigger problem for scions who are not regents, as they are not actively ruling and lose out on ways of increasing their score.

Personally, I have liked to think of strength and score as two different types of descriptors. Strength is a measure of purity, while score was the measure of quantity. So a True line with a low score doesn't have a lot of divine essence, but it is pure and potent, like a dram of scotch. A tainted line with a high score is like a gallon of light beer. Having both i always found made for a wider variety of more interesting characters.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Well, the Gorgon's is still True. And the Roele line was True up until Michael's death. Actually, do we know of any other families that had a True line immediately after Deismaar? I don't think there were many. Certainly not everyone who was at Deismaar received a True line.

We don`t know, because we don`t have any examples of such, by a strict reading of the core material.

I agree that there were not many. But I hardly think that Roele was the only one who received a True line. The El-Arrasi and the Danig lines were probably True as well, at one point. Zarayatim, most likely, too. The Avans, the Boeruines, the Diems, the Mhorieds - maybe... maybe not.

And there are plenty of examples of Azrai`s minions getting bloodlines - but centuries of breeding and in-fighting have diluted most goblin and other humanoid bloodlines to almost nothing.

There`s your proof. There have been many True lines - witness the number of True awnsheghlien - but they have been lost, for various reasons. We can safely assume, surely, that a roughly similar number of True bloodlines of other derivations existed, at one point.

But conversely, if the line Strength rounds down as you say, then after 1500 years, that's what ~75 generations, all the bloodlines would be tainted by now, unless every generation married into the exact same strength.

That is exactly what has happened. There are no more True lines left, and very few Great lines left. Families noticed fairly quickly that bloodline strength diluted with other bloodlines, so families have been trying to marry at the same strength OR BETTER ever since. And the Greats have been resisting marrying into lesser lines for the same reason. And the Majors have resisted marrying into the Minors. The Minors are stuck at their own level, and praying that they get lucky, by various means available to them.

If it's purely about reputation, then i think that actually supports my version. Roele, post Deismaar, would certainly have been considered a great man, yes? I don't think his children would have been considered lessers- The children carry Roele's bloodline, and would have been born with that same high reputation. Saying you were the "son of Roele" would have gravitas regardless of who the mother was.

But it`s not about reputation. Reputation follows the strength, because such Great lines inspire that sort of thing.

Would you rather follow Joe the Lesser, who might simply have purple hair - or follow Avan the Stupendous because he can shoot lightning out of his butt and smite his foes with his laser-ray eye powers...

If, suddenly, you son doesn`t display the same sort of powers, people have to start wondering... why shouldn`t I go serve Boeruine the Bold instead, who knows no Fear and can blast his enemies with the terrible roar of a thousand lions... He will be a better leader than this wimpy heir, and will keep us safe with his super powers better than this useless fool can.

You can still have dilution. When i referred to the child ruling-up his bloodline score earlier, that's obviously easier when you start with a higher score. So choosing stronger lines for your mate would still be desirable. The incentive is still there in either case. A great line marrying a tainted line is diluted due to the score. And the lower score means they likely have fewer blood abilities.

See above. Fewer abilities does not for a True bloodline make. What powerful bloodline does not manifest its abilities more evocatively, and more of them, I ask you... give me an example.

You don`t get strength unless you are a paragon of that derivation`s purpose!

Personally, I have liked to think of strength and score as two different types of descriptors. Strength is a measure of purity, while score was the measure of quantity. So a True line with a low score doesn't have a lot of divine essence, but it is pure and potent, like a dram of scotch. A tainted line with a high score is like a gallon of light beer. Having both i always found made for a wider variety of more interesting characters.

A scion who increases his score is going to increase his strength, at some point - it`s inevitable. The reverse is also true - great lines evaporate due to poor cultivation of the bloodline`s raison d`ètre. The two go hand in hand.

As a scion grows in strength, their divine essence manifests itself more powerfully, and more evocatively - scions can`t truly hide their divinity. The reverse is also true. As scions fall from grace, they lose their powers, and their purity, and it fades away...

People notice this, feel this, either way. That`s where the reputation part of strength comes into play. That guy is a SCION - he`s a great man. Or, that guy WAS a SCION, but he was such a loser, he lost (most of) his powers.

So, going by your own analogy, think of strength (score) as merely alcohol, and not as a type of alcohol (which is what derivation is)... you can`t have a high alcohol content without there being a lot of alcohol in the system! Whether it`s been diluted with water a hundred times, or never, affects the total content amount!

At some point, a Minor line turns into a Major line, a Major line turns into a Great line, and a Great line becomes... something more.

You said it, Fizz, not me - divine essence is like an OS!

Hence, why I started this thread...

[Fizz]

I agree that there were not many. But I hardly think that Roele was the only one who received a True line. The El-Arrasi and the Danig lines were probably True as well, at one point. Zarayatim, most likely, too. The Avans, the Boeruines, the Diems, the Mhorieds - maybe... maybe not.

And most of those are still Great lines, so if they started as True, the dilution is very slow. Since the number of blooded people is a small fraction of the population (1% i think?), i don't think there is a sufficient pool for matchups within each Strength. So going outside of your own "Strength" would naturally occur, and under your paradigm would degrade extremely quickly (just a few generations).

And there are plenty of examples of Azrai`s minions getting bloodlines - but centuries of breeding and in-fighting have diluted most goblin and other humanoid bloodlines to almost nothing.
There`s your proof. There have been many True lines - witness the number of True awnsheghlien - but they have been lost, for various reasons. We can safely assume, surely, that a roughly similar number of True bloodlines of other derivations existed, at one point.

Most awnsheghlien do not have a True line, which makes sense as they have been slaying each other over the millennia, trying to improve their own power. By my count there are 6 awnsheghlien with a True line. And being awnsheghlien, close to Azrai, that particular bloodline may behave more aggressively than others.

That is exactly what has happened. There are no more True lines left, and very few Great lines left. Families noticed fairly quickly that bloodline strength diluted with other bloodlines, so families have been trying to marry at the same strength OR BETTER ever since. And the Greats have been resisting marrying into lesser lines for the same reason. And the Majors have resisted marrying into the Minors. The Minors are stuck at their own level, and praying that they get lucky, by various means available to them.

I'm not disagreeing with this. What i'm saying is that this phenomena will occur regardless of whether a child inherits the stronger parent's Strength or if you "average" them down. You said that a child keeping the stronger parent's Strength would remove this incentive, and i think the incentive remains either way.

But it`s not about reputation. Reputation follows the strength, because such Great lines inspire that sort of thing.

Hmmm... i thought you were arguing in favor of that, so maybe i misread what you were saying. I don't disagree that reputation can, in principle, follow Strength. But reputation doesn't always have to be demonstrably earned either. I can see this going either way.

See above. Fewer abilities does not for a True bloodline make. What powerful bloodline does not manifest its abilities more evocatively, and more of them, I ask you... give me an example.

As a rule no, but it's possible. True lines, since they only come from Deismaar, will naturally have high scores- they still reside in the original recipient, so no dilution. Any foolish / incapable characters with True lines would have died out long ago. But there are numerous examples of other lines with scores much lower than you'd expect.

For example, Dherg Wir of Halskapa has a Major line but only a score of 15. Burzak the Great of the Iron Hand Tribes is Major at 22. Y'urre of the Manticore's Domain has a Major line at only 17. These are all values are significantly lower than would be expected for that Strength.

Update: The lowest Great scores i have found belong to Tolzimkur of the Sword Rust Tribes, at 12, and his granddaughter lieutenant, Negra Redfoot, also Great with a miniscule score of 4.

So there are your requested examples; proof that low scores for Great lines is possible.

I think we agree on a lot of this, we just differ as the mechanics and timelines of dilution. I do get your point about True lines (outside of awnsheghlien), but there are other mechanisms, some of which you mentioned, that could account for that. 1500 years of history can be a bumpy ride. Heh.

So, going by your own analogy, think of strength (score) as merely alcohol, and not as a TYPE of alcohol (which is what derivation is)...

I think of Score as the total amount of liquid, and the Strength rating as the alchohol concentration (or ABV if you prefer). Combined you get the total potency of the drink. (And yes, type or flavor would be derivation.)

You said it, Fizz, not me - divine essence is like an OS!

If i recall correctly, i was referring to the derivation as the OS, as it controls how the divine energy is manifested.


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Yeah I tried to edit the errata but I guess I don't have permission for that page.
Here's what I tried to add:

Table 2-4b Minor Resistance (Azrai) should occur on a roll of 92-00, not 99-00.

I am starting a new thread on this issue.

Sorontar