Those pesky dragons...

[Malphas]

I'm now also tackling the same problem.

I did create a system of inferior rp collection for a different reason already (pcs thought of exploring some distant shores. distant enough to not have much blooded individuals. back then i didn't expect there to still be a community for birthright)

now they started paying attention to draconic matters instead (the expedition is suspended until either roundship becomes available or seaworthiness of vessels improves)
from discussions we had there came 2 thought patterns:
1 dragons are embodiment of power and thus collect from source holdings only but without restriction (someone had to mage the dragonlines)
2 dragons collect from source and province holdings but with an age category based cap

after discussing with pcs i'm leaning towards nr 1 honestly and think that a bit more limited action list is perhaps worth a consideration.

p.s. there was a rule that dragon bones increase source potential by 1. so dragons definitely are quite magical

[masterdaorin]

p.s. there was a rule that dragon bones increase source potential by 1. so dragons definitely are quite magical

I don't believe there was any rule about that, just a throwaway line in a sourcebook hinting at such.

I'm actually leaning towards just giving these special dragons a bloodline and calling it a day.

The problem with RP collection for non-scions as it is currently being bandied about is it makes scions somewhat less special.

Perhaps if a bloodline merely gave a bonus to regent actions (basically, an ability modifier), then we could create the rule that RP collection is based solely on level, or whatever, and it would make it fair for everyone (but scions would just be better at regent actions).

[masterdaorin]

Could dragons have an "inherent" bloodline (and, for that matter, elves)? Their inherently magical nature gives them the ability to create a bloodline?

I'm thinking, they start off at a score of 1 when they gain a source holding and, using the increasing bloodline strength rules via RP, can increase that score over time just like any other regent?

[Osprey]

Could dragons have an "inherent" bloodline (and, for that matter, elves)? Their inherently magical nature gives them the ability to create a bloodline?

I'm thinking, they start off at a score of 1 when they gain a source holding and, using the increasing bloodline strength rules via RP, can increase that score over time just like any other regent?

I still think a dragon's inherent bloodline strength should be related to its hit dice, because those are related to its age, and age = power for dragons. Their inherent magical power is tied to their age, it would make sense their ability to manipulate sources and other holdings would also be tied to this.

An easy number would be Bloodline Score = 2 x HD.

Now whether or not a dragon could raise its score beyond the base score through controlling holdings (especially sources) and spending RP is a different question. But it makes sense that some mebhaighl-hoarding dragons might develop very powerful bloodlines far beyond their inherent strength!

[Sorontar]

The hit dice measure might make sense but it needs a backstory reason. Perhaps at the core of the heart of every dragon is permanent elemental essence which is tied to the earth of Aebyrnis/Shadow World. Maybe even when the worlds split, the dragons were born from that essence, hence their rarity, and hence the connection they still have to the land - and the regency power they can have even before the Battle of Deismaar. They are not gods, but they are part of the land. The strength of that connection can change, but they can be treated like they are blooded.

Just a thought.

Sorontar

[Osprey]

The hit dice measure might make sense but it needs a backstory reason. Perhaps at the core of the heart of every dragon is permanent elemental essence which is tied to the earth of Aebyrnis/Shadow World. Maybe even when the worlds split, the dragons were born from that essence, hence their rarity, and hence the connection they still have to the land - and the regency power they can have even before the Battle of Deismaar. They are not gods, but they are part of the land. The strength of that connection can change, but they can be treated like they are blooded.

Just a thought.

Sorontar

All we really know about dragon magic from the 2e box set reference card is this:

Dragon Magic: All Cerilian dragons are powerful spellcasters, equivalent to wizards of 9th -16th (1d8+8) level. However, dragons are able to use spells only from the schools of abjuration, alteration, conjuration/summoning, and divination. Victims of dragon magic suffer a saving throw penalty equal to the dragon's Armor Class modifier due to its age; thus, a victim of a wyrm's spells suffers a -3 penalty to saving throws.

The idea that dragons are Earth-aligned creatures does mesh well with their allowed schools being "earth schools." Their save penalties suggest the old ones are potent specialists in their chosen schools, but they are quite limited in choice of spells, which makes them rather inferior to other true mages.

As I see them so strongly tied to the earth and mebhaighl, I am not sure I see there being any Shadow World connection at all - especially given their lack of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy magic, the 3 schools most tied to the nature of the Shadow World).

It's always been my impression that dragons may be even older than elves, and possibly the first true mages of Cerilia (though the greatest elven and human mages will eventually surpass them in breadth of lore and total ability). Elves might be just as old, and there is no reference I can find to elves learning magic from any other source than themselves and the mebhaighal itself.

The inherent mage spells of a dragon could also easily replace bloodline powers, so that there is no need to develop a Draconic Bloodline and give dragons extra (divine) powers.

[masterdaorin]

I still think a dragon's inherent bloodline strength should be related to its hit dice, because those are related to its age, and age = power for dragons. Their inherent magical power is tied to their age, it would make sense their ability to manipulate sources and other holdings would also be tied to this.

An easy number would be Bloodline Score = 2 x HD.

Now whether or not a dragon could raise its score beyond the base score through controlling holdings (especially sources) and spending RP is a different question. But it makes sense that some mebhaighl-hoarding dragons might develop very powerful bloodlines far beyond their inherent strength!

That does make sense, and seems the easiest method, but I'm reluctant to go with this as it is a "static" stat. This sort of thing (i.e. regency) seems to be more dynamic in nature, if you catch my meaning.

[masterdaorin]

As I see them so strongly tied to the earth and mebhaighl, I am not sure I see there being any Shadow World connection at all - especially given their lack of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy magic, the 3 schools most tied to the nature of the Shadow World).

I agree.

It's always been my impression that dragons may be even older than elves, and possibly the first true mages of Cerilia (though the greatest elven and human mages will eventually surpass them in breadth of lore and total ability). Elves might be just as old, and there is no reference I can find to elves learning magic from any other source than themselves and the mebhaighal itself.

The inherent mage spells of a dragon could also easily replace bloodline powers, so that there is no need to develop a Draconic Bloodline and give dragons extra (divine) powers.

Indeed, dragons are older than elves - the cardstock sheet in which you referenced states as much.

My impression is that dragons and elves are pretty much the same - their inherent magical nature allows them to learn about magic use in much the same way (i.e. it comes naturally to them).

The problem, at least as it relates to this thread's topic, is that two canon sources provide contradictory information: the article on Tarazin says that dragons are immune to the absorption of divine energy, while the Lifesbane article says that Zakhur's momma absorbed so much divine energy at Deismaar that it literally killed her.

So, what to do?

And, whatever we decide, if dragons can access sources naturally (say, via HD), then elves ought to have the same ability to do so, wouldn't you agree?

[masterdaorin]

As an aside, who wrote the conversion statistics of Cerilian dragons for the 3/3.5e version of the rules found here on this site?

I have questions... such as:

How did the author arrive at the CR and Advancement numbers? The same applies for the various age category-dependent numbers, like size... And, should dragons have a subtype (Fire, Earth)?

And the cardstock sheet clearly implies that a Cerilian dragon's breath weapon is a line, but the stat block states that it is a cone. (Of course, the canon articles I have mentioned also imply that dragons breath a cone effect... so, I can live with that difference).